GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #2

[cottonweaver]

Van E couldn't form an opinion on whether there was a 2nd impact because his pictures weren't clear enough. But I don't think that's strictly his field of expertise either.

Could have happened outside on their patio?

Don't think there is cctv, they relied on neighbours' evidence for the trip to the rubbish bin and dog walk.

Patio was def concrete construct from pix. I wondered this before when we looked for concrete in the photos- would he risk that , being seen by neighbours, he's so devious. ( ie. I think he liked to regularly bash people about fully behind closed doors BUT it's true he may have really lost his temper and been more risk taking)

If the kitchen floor is concrete, thin lino atop, very easy to clean up afterwards. I would have thought painted( emulsioned) walls would have shown up traces with that luminol stuff they use? ( I never watched a CSI programme so IDK, but maybe BB has watched a lot of those? Bit like the BWatts killer?)

.....Crime scene investigators use luminol to find traces of blood, even if someone has cleaned or removed it........"if someone cleans a crime scene thoroughly with a bleach solution, residual cleaner makes the entire crime scene produce the typical blue glow, which effectively camouflages organic evidence such as blood."......"dried and decomposed blood gave a stronger and more lasting reaction than fresh blood;"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminol#Drawbacks

The whole is v v v irritating.
ETA - added more

 

[cottonweaver]

just had a quick look

it appears Oxy 10 type household cleaners remove blood very effectively
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090217112516.htm

https://student.societyforscience.org/article/clean-getaway

 

[jog]

just had a quick look

it appears Oxy 10 type household cleaners remove blood very effectively
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090217112516.htm

https://student.societyforscience.org/article/clean-getaway

In the video shown of Ellie with the black eye she also had a bandage on with blood coming through. If you look closely there appears to also be blood on the kitchen floor. Now I think that video was taken in October when Ellie was off school . Could then the blood on the cushion be from that as we don't have a timescale for the blood ? Just wondered? Also when the paramedics say they felt a boggy mass on the back of the head I thought that was relating to the feeling of the skull. I haven't actually heard anything suggesting there was blood coming from her head or a pool of blood whee she was lying so if that is correct she could have been moved without there being any blood trail. The pillow may have blood on it but from a previous occasion of injury ie earlier in October and he saw it there and tried to wash it off as believed incriminating. Just a thought !

 

[Gigi-G]

I think it's very hard but it 's definitely worth trying to fathom how he did it.
I'm just putting this back up so it's easier for everyone to join in if they want to

"Wet dilute blood from Ellie Butler had been deposited onto the pillow, ... E Blood on a sofa cushion in the living room was also found"( forensics as reported newspaper)
1. She's been moved ( living room to bedroom at least ) - forensics prove that. So why didn't Brown ask that in the cross? Is it just cause it doesn't matter to CPS, they have enough "staging info"??? IDK.
1a. She's been moved- but forensics can't prove. Bizarre - why can't forensics prove blood on a sofa c is freshly spilt? ( I can see why diluted on a pillow could be harder) V. frustrating.

2. So E is moved upstairs after assault/skull impact 1. ( We still have no weapon and no eg. wall surface impact signs cause they have been cleaned off by BB perhaps)
BB puts her on the bed. Somehow she has to fall off the bed to create next skull impact - ok she is a dead weight but is it a far enough fall to get that impact ?
Correct me if wrong here but Def expert Dr van E thought it was one skull impact only and that one impact needed a fall of 50"( he measured chair plus Ellie) and even then it was very rare to get that kind of injury from 50 ".

3 .I just feel the wardrobe doors are poss part of BB JG staging but equally they may just be coincidental - they had been open since night before even.
4. TBH I 'm not sure his accident BS would have worked even if there was one blow - because of the force of either of those blows was classed as "catastrophic"

One thing is for sure - he/they did a big clean up of a wall or a kitchen floor or something in the house used as a weapon. ( That awful case you linked to, today it's been revealed the boyf used a household chair to kill the baby boy. )
It's somewhat possible there is an alternative portable weapon and he went out before JG got home to deposit that in afar away bin etc - ok he was never witnessed/maybe no CCTV on estate?.

Basically IDK at all - I'd have to look at van E again and the skull stuff and even then IDK if I'd be any the wiser!

ETA - van E knows sweet F.A. about 2 impacts so he couldn't possibly opine on 2 anyway . See next post on Van E with link.

I think. If it was 2 fractures. Both were either downstairs. Or at least 1 on the stairs.

Unlike the Welsh case with baby Finlay. There was an object involved. As the imprinted pattern on baby's head matched that of the baby chair. It was one of those bouncy chairs you put babies in. It was all edged by parents that an older child came in and jumped on the bouncy chair thus catapulting it and baby. Landing on a hard floor head first with the chair on him.

We don't have any implement with Ellie. Just a caved in back of skull...
If yr falling backwards n drowsy anyways. You won't be able to counteract yr fall. Even aware yr going backwards is hard enough to do.

Jmo

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[Gigi-G]

Even if it was one blow.... I'd bagsy in the kitchen. Idk.. place with most blood.. then staged as per found by medics....

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[Gigi-G]

Even if it was one blow.... I'd bagsy in the kitchen. Idk.. place with most blood.. then staged as per found by medics....

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Her .... late into work.... chance to do most of the clearing up.... idk. Treading water here. I doubt if we'll ever know. Neither of them will confess. So it will be assumption..

POOR POOR SWEET ELLIE. YOU DON'T DESERVE AN ENDING LIKE THIS. YOUR LIL LIGHT WILL SHINE ON SWEETIE. AND YOU WILL PLAY HAPPILY WITH THE OTHER CHILDREN UP THERE WITH YOU. .... EVEN IF YOUR OWN PARENTS DIDN'T LOVE YOU THE WAY THEY SHOULD OF. THEY DID. BUT THINGS GOT IN THE WAY. AND ELLIE... YOU'VE GOT A WHOLE LOT OF PEOPLE HERE. WHO'VE NEVER MET YOU. BUT LOVE YOU EVEN STILL.. SHINE BRIGHT STAR LIGHT ☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆

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[cottonweaver]

In the video shown of Ellie with the black eye she also had a bandage on with blood coming through. If you look closely there appears to also be blood on the kitchen floor. Now I think that video was taken in October when Ellie was off school . Could then the blood on the cushion be from that as we don't have a timescale for the blood ? Just wondered? Also when the paramedics say they felt a boggy mass on the back of the head I thought that was relating to the feeling of the skull. I haven't actually heard anything suggesting there was blood coming from her head or a pool of blood whee she was lying so if that is correct she could have been moved without there being any blood trail. The pillow may have blood on it but from a previous occasion of injury ie earlier in October and he saw it there and tried to wash it off as believed incriminating. Just a thought !

Ah ok - boggy mass - interpret that as spongy rather than wet - yes it could well mean that indeed. So very little blood leaking. So as you say, moved without very little trail thus no need to clean up much at all. This phrase makes sense now, tx. It's too horrible though- the crime in general,I just hope she died quickly tbh.

I'll go and take a look at the video again.
He certainly says sofa cushion blood is from a previous injury but as we can't ever trust this pair to tell the truth...
It's true that on his staging he could have started to try to clean up old blood too - dilution on the pillow
As Gigi says we will never know ,but still....

 

[Gigi-G]

Ah ok - boggy mass - interpret that as spongy rather than wet - yes it could well mean that indeed. So very little blood leaking. So as you say, moved without very little trail thus no need to clean up much at all. This phrase makes sense now, tx. It's too horrible though- the crime in general,I just hope she died quickly tbh.

I'll go and take a look at the video again.
He certainly says sofa cushion blood is from a previous injury but as we can't ever trust this pair to tell the truth...
It's true that on his staging he could have started to try to clean up old blood too - dilution on the pillow
As Gigi says we will never know ,but still....

Well from the medics repulsion when she at first put her hand under Ellie's head. "Boggy mass" was her expression I think she was agog at the carnage she found/felt. (a typical car crash or rta injury) not the typical domestic injury you find on a child. I think that's pretty descriptive. And pool of blood... pooled other than spread indicative of possibly placed after no life signs evident. Or faint signs. Sorry to be so gruesome. But it's things that the Csi SOCO would have pics and evidence of. That's not been made public as yet. Imo

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[cottonweaver]

Even if it was one blow.... I'd bagsy in the kitchen. Idk.. place with most blood.. then staged as per found by medics....

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We have had multiple "top of their game" pathologists testify

pathologist* Prof Anthony Risdon

pathologist Dr Andreas* Marnerides

Consultant forensic pathologist Dr Nathaniel Cary- quoted below

and that's without the others testifying re the skull.

Anyway I just had another look-

“Consultant forensic pathologist Dr Nathaniel Cary found Ellie’s injuries were like those sustained in a car crash, not a short fall, Brown told jurors.. The nature and extent of the head injury is wholly incompatible with having occurred accidentally in a domestic environment. Dr Cary has never in his experience encountered an accidental head injury of this severity in a domestic environment,” said Brown.
“In Dr Cary’s opinion, this major head injury was the result of one or more very forceful blunt impacts arising, for instance, through being thrown against a wall or the ground, or struck with a heavy blunt weapon.”
“The areas of bruising and the abrasion over Ellie’s body are consistent with grappling and gripping, including over the jawline and the limbs,” added Brown.

So maybe it is just one very powerful impact .
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ix-year-old-injured-like-car-crash-court-told

 

[Gigi-G]

Had the events from when JG said she'd assessed Ellie n she seemed fine after her accident on the stairs.. the first signs for concussion is vomiting. Let alone a Blood shot eye. Could be indicative of a 'bleed' in her skull. I would of NEVER of chanced not taking her to A&E. Especially as JG n BB seem to state that Ellie had numerous medical problems.... the hospital should of been first stop. (If it ever happened of course. It is probably another part of the charade) imo

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[Gigi-G]

In the video shown of Ellie with the black eye she also had a bandage on with blood coming through. If you look closely there appears to also be blood on the kitchen floor. Now I think that video was taken in October when Ellie was off school . Could then the blood on the cushion be from that as we don't have a timescale for the blood ? Just wondered? Also when the paramedics say they felt a boggy mass on the back of the head I thought that was relating to the feeling of the skull. I haven't actually heard anything suggesting there was blood coming from her head or a pool of blood whee she was lying so if that is correct she could have been moved without there being any blood trail. The pillow may have blood on it but from a previous occasion of injury ie earlier in October and he saw it there and tried to wash it off as believed incriminating. Just a thought !

As blood dries it changes colour. And would you like a blood stained cushion lurking in yr living room for a few days?
It would be straight in the hot wash cycle if it were me with some oxy added to the wash.... usually a staple additive in kids laundry... grass stains and the like...

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[Electric Sheep]

As blood dries it changes colour. And would you like a blood stained cushion lurking in yr living room for a few days?
It would be straight in the hot wash cycle if it were me with some oxy added to the wash.... usually a staple additive in kids laundry... grass stains and the like...

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Very cold water is much better for getting out blood stains. If you soak the article in ice water it will usually take out the stain.

 

[Gigi-G]

R.I.P Ellie ♡

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[Gigi-G]

Very cold water is much better for getting out blood stains. If you soak the article in ice water it will usually take out the stain.

Thank you. Altho I'm happy to say I don't have to battle with blood very much. It's usually oil or grease or brake dust. Having 3 guys in the family lol

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[cottonweaver]

Well would you believe it, dating blood has always been tricky , they found it tricky to get accuracy. It took a while to find the answer but that explains a lot - it's not that we are missing details - rather police probably won't have been sure they could pinpoint the age of some of the spatter found.
http://dare.uva.nl/document/2/93568

new developments in US 2012 publicity - probably too late for this crime ( probably too new to be in use in UK police forces by 2013?) :

Chemists in the US have developed a quick and simple way to find out how old bloodstains are using natural fluorescence measurements. Knowing when blood has been spilled can help forensic scientists pinpoint when a crime took place, but current techniques - such as optical measurements of haemoglobin degradation - can be unreliable.

http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/N...loodstains-fluorescent-forensic-technique.asp

another new process developed in UK 2013- definitely too late for this crime:

"Month-old blood samples can be dated to within a day, while fresh traces have been pinpointed to within an hour of their being taken, potentially helping police to establish a time of death immediately .......Because blood changes colour over time, from bright red to muddy brown, at a known rate, the device is able to put an accurate age to a sample......"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...ing-stains-may-help-solve-crimes-8906451.html

Another thing that can be eliminated.....can't say that info is going to add anything to my life but there you go

 

[Gigi-G]

Well would you believe it, dating blood has always been tricky , they found it tricky to get accuracy. It took a while to find the answer but that explains a lot - it's not that we are missing details - rather police probably won't have been sure they could pinpoint the age of some of the spatter found.
http://dare.uva.nl/document/2/93568

new developments in US 2012 publicity - probably too late for this crime ( probably too new to be in use in UK police forces by 2013?) :


http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/N...loodstains-fluorescent-forensic-technique.asp

another new process developed in UK 2013- definitely too late for this crime:

"Month-old blood samples can be dated to within a day, while fresh traces have been pinpointed to within an hour of their being taken, potentially helping police to establish a time of death immediately .......Because blood changes colour over time, from bright red to muddy brown, at a known rate, the device is able to put an accurate age to a sample......"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...ing-stains-may-help-solve-crimes-8906451.html

Another thing that can be eliminated.....can't say that info is going to add anything to my life but there you go

Wow that's awesome. I knew the fluorescence was a main game player. But the new method. Brilliant!
That'll help save time.

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[cottonweaver]

Very cold water is much better for getting out blood stains. If you soak the article in ice water it will usually take out the stain.

Yes, I use cold water . I bet the so-called "house-husband" didn't know that - maybe he couldn't even operate the washing machine!
Seemingly even JG didn't know that as she put her bloodied shirt in the wash ( well she said cops planted it or sthng) , but the stain was still there when the police discovered the shirt.
Like Gigi said, if we believed JG she would be throwing away sets of towels every month as she certainly couldn't do laundry either.

 

[Gigi-G]

Just a quick update on flight ms804 that was lost at sea. Seems they have almost located the black boxes. ( even though they are orange?)
They are within 80% of their range. Hopefully soon the relatives can have closure soon.

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[cottonweaver]

Wow that's awesome. I knew the fluorescence was a main game player. But the new method. Brilliant!
That'll help save time.

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well we have all got some tips now, should we be planning any bloody crimes in the future.....

 

[Gigi-G]

well we have all got some tips now, should we be planning any bloody crimes in the future.....

Pahaha I just need a gun..... jk 😂

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