GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #2

[Tortoise]

Tell you what guys, I am almost tempted to write to this P.O.S Butler when he is transferred to prison, with a big photo of poor Ellie.

But it probably wouldn't get passed on would it? Anyone know?

He wasn't allowed photos with children in, during his last stint inside.

 

[ColourPurple]

Cheers, just watched it. Never seen any of the cartoons before. Should really have checked it out before now.
How bizarre that a child who had had a great number of supposedly innocent head injuries/"accidents" would be allowed to singalong with a rhyme like that. So how strange that they used this on the 28th.
Was Millie the dog unavailable as a trip hazard that day? I suppose the scenario wouldn't work for BB this time around?

I reckon the dog could have been bought for Ellie as blackmail to keep her quiet about a previous injury, then they coudl jsut keep reissuing the same threat. "If you tell anyone they'll take Millie away"

 

[cottonweaver]

That's what I thought, so if Ellie was dead by the time the ambulance came, and it seems that she was, then bruises can't have been from the resuscitation "bag" . Do we know if the paramedics even used such a bag?

Hate to contradict but from a previous case on WS, bodies can indeed "bruise" after death. This is why DR. JO chose this.
However no idea if a resus bag was used.

( Incidentally , BB claimed that the 2007 SBS was also partly created by his attempt to resus a 6 week old Ellie)

 

[Tortoise]

I think Ellie was getting a bit old to be a Peppa Pig fan, she was 2 months off being 7. It's hard to remember but I think mine were getting into Harry Potter and stuff a bit more advanced at 7. It's more a pre-school kind of programme, probably her younger sister's.

 

[cottonweaver]

I reckon the dog could have been bought for Ellie as blackmail to keep her quiet about a previous injury, then they coudl jsut keep reissuing the same threat. "If you tell anyone they'll take Millie away"

Yes it fits and that threat works very powerfully with a young child but honestly I wouldn't put anything past this pair.

 

[cottonweaver]

I think Ellie was getting a bit old to be a Peppa Pig fan, she was 2 months off being 7. It's hard to remember but I think mine were getting into Harry Potter and stuff a bit more advanced at 7. It's more a pre-school kind of programme, probably her younger sister's.

Good point.

 

[Tortoise]

Hate to contradict but from a previous case on WS, bodies can indeed "bruise" after death. This is why DR. JO chose this.
However no idea if a resus bag was used.

( Incidentally , BB claimed that the 2007 SBS was also partly created by his attempt to resus a 6 week old Ellie)

Not according to Prof Risdon they don't. There is a name for it which I can't remember but it's where blood settles where the body is laying after death, which can be confused with bruising.

 

[cottonweaver]

Not according to Prof Risdon they don't. There is a name for it which I can't remember but it's where blood settles where the body is laying after death, which can be confused with bruising.

I haven't spent time re-looking but here's one of the first google hits that comes up

http://netk.net.au/Articles/Bruising.asp

Naturally I'd defer to a Home Office accredited path over a net search anyday of the week. ( We looked at all this guff in the OP case)

 

[ColourPurple]

I'm at that wobbly pessimistic stage that I seem to go through near the end of a trial where I worry that the jury might believe the defence argument. I just hope they consider that a not guilty verdict for BB would open up the chance of him being able to have access to young children in the future. God forbid that he walks free again and we're in this situation for a third time in a few years time.

 

[cottonweaver]

It looks like they were in a council flat or maisonette, if it was anything like the flat I lived in when my eldest was a toddler, then the floor may be concrete underneath (rather than floorboards) but on top of that there's those lino type floor tiles and you then put underlay and carpet on top of that. Even with a very thin foam backed carpet without underlay, I can't imagine any situation where you would fracture your skull or get a blunt force injury from falling onto it.Even a fall onto the bare lino tiles wouldn't cause that kind of injury.

Yes still so mysterious - how/where the fatal impacts were delivered, whether they had to do a clean-up/weapon hide etc.

 

[ColourPurple]

Hate to contradict but from a previous case on WS, bodies can indeed "bruise" after death. This is why DR. JO chose this.
However no idea if a resus bag was used.

( Incidentally , BB claimed that the 2007 SBS was also partly created by his attempt to resus a 6 week old Ellie)

Yeah looking at your link on the other post it does seem that bruise like injuries can appear in certain circumstances , both drownings in that example. Probably best they don't argue that point in case BB uses it as a reason to appeal if he's found guilty.

 

[ColourPurple]

Yes still so mysterious - how/where the fatal impacts were delivered, whether they had to do a clean-up/weapon hide etc.

I wonder did they use luminol or blood dogs in the whole flat.? I guess they must have used at least one to to find the other bloody clothing, cushion and towel.

The whole bringing the garden furniture in from the storm and knocking the lounge curtain pole off with it, the night before seems suspicious to me.

I did ponder whether Ellie could have fallen off the balcony/out of the window but she would have had other injuries and there would be blood out there so ruled that out.

 

[cottonweaver]

Yeah looking at your link on the other post it does seem that bruise like injuries can appear in certain circumstances , both drownings in that example. Probably best they don't argue that point in case BB uses it as a reason to appeal if he's found guilty.

Who knows? Stick with Risdon- they may have done extra up-to date tests on the marks on her jaw. ( I'm no CSI viewer , just remembering there was a previous debate about this 3 years ago, so it's vague in my recollection.)
Pros also combined the jaw finger bruises with abrasions consistent with "grappling" - but we haven't had Dr J.O's interpretation of that.

We do know from thread 1 that the CPS threw the big guns at this case. That since the noughties and all the controversial medical witnesses, that they had really focussed on the problem of scientific controversies scuppering abuse cases. Alongside Risdon, they had the next level up - Consultant Forensics personnel. I'm sure they were meticulous.

What have the 3 defence experts brought to the table - not so much. That Laura Scheimberg ( who rowed with Risdon almost at the path table) didn't even give evidence in the end.

I know what you're saying CP, re pessimism wobbles at the final hurdle, and I recall Jog saying the same fairly recently, but I still think it will be OK, both will be convicted of the charges. The sentences probably won't be long enough though.

 

[cottonweaver]

I wonder did they use luminol or blood dogs in the whole flat.? I guess they must have used at least one to to find the other bloody clothing, cushion and towel.

The whole bringing the garden furniture in from the storm and knocking the lounge curtain pole off with it, the night before seems suspicious to me.

I did ponder whether Ellie could have fallen off the balcony/out of the window but she would have had other injuries and there would be blood out there so ruled that out.

BIB well remembered- yes, how coincidental is that.

Unfortunately I can't remember what was established re luminol, but do rem that Oxy 10 cleans away blood.LOL.
Blood dogs hasn't been raised so maybe not used.

JG mentioned disposing of something in a bus stop bin on her way to work or something like that ( have forgotten exactly) so the possibility of them disposing of an improvised weapon is still possible. Let's face it they are crafty enough.

I saw the photo of her in the news reports again today, looks like she had curled her hair again, unless it's a library shot. She did look more tired though.
I presume they are both sweating it and there have been some anxious and recriminatory meet-ups at Belmarsh last week.

 

[Gigi-G]

That's what I thought, so if Ellie was dead by the time the ambulance came, and it seems that she was, then bruises can't have been from the resuscitation "bag" . Do we know if the paramedics even used such a bag?

I'm not sure without going over the old posts. Standard procedure tho with no breathing/pulse would be cpr. They carry o2 as portable supply + ambulance has own inbuilt supply. Bags are only used basically from going one pace to another. Or trying to maintain airway without giving too much o2. As too much can be just as dangerous as too little. I'm gonna check out old posts.. bare with....

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[Gigi-G]

I'm not sure without going over the old posts. Standard procedure tho with no breathing/pulse would be cpr. They carry o2 as portable supply + ambulance has own inbuilt supply. Bags are only used basically from going one pace to another. Or trying to maintain airway without giving too much o2. As too much can be just as dangerous as too little. I'm gonna check out old posts.. bare with....

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I found an old link... omw 1000s of posts on #1 thread lol..
No mention of Ellie being 'bagged'
the call centre told JG how to give cpr. And to do this until first responders get there.
Then a medical team arrives. Asking questions how long she been like this. How did she fall etc.
Passing over to Ambulance crew. Similar questions asked. When one of the Technicians went to alter Ellie's head position. She found a 'boggy mass' nothing hard where it should be skull there wasn't any. She was taken aback at this.
I'm assuming she moved Ellie's head into a position to fit a 'tube' for ventilated/assisted breathing. Nothing mentioned specifically about being bagged. But it's a possibility Ellie was to put on life support.
Because Ellie was actually pronounced Dead at hospital.

Link: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/harrowing-999-call-reveals-mum-7809477

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[Gigi-G]

BIB well remembered- yes, how coincidental is that.

Unfortunately I can't remember what was established re luminol, but do rem that Oxy 10 cleans away blood.LOL.
Blood dogs hasn't been raised so maybe not used.

JG mentioned disposing of something in a bus stop bin on her way to work or something like that ( have forgotten exactly) so the possibility of them disposing of an improvised weapon is still possible. Let's face it they are crafty enough.

I saw the photo of her in the news reports again today, looks like she had curled her hair again, unless it's a library shot. She did look more tired though.
I presume they are both sweating it and there have been some anxious and recriminatory meet-ups at Belmarsh last week.

IIRC I think it was her diary she said she threw into a bin by the bus stop.
Trying to not collaborate the diary excerpts. As I said a long long time ago and many many posts ago. IF YOU TELL LIES AND YOU CORROBORATE WITH A-NOTHER PERSON INCLUDED IN THIS 'LIE' YOU MUST REMEMBER YOUR LIES MATCH UP. AND THAT YOU BOTH MUST HAVE A BLOODY GOOD MEMORY!

Cuz the thing with lies see. ... within a scenario like BB and JG. And the 'numerous' at least weekly prison visits. They will have worked out what their stories are. To match each other. But Mr FitzG is well on to them. He knows the two of them are acting out. And he's playing the Pied Piper. Playing a merry lil tune. Watching them slip up. Time and time and time again. Because THEY might have their story's straight. But you can't guarantee what Mr FitzG is gonna throw at them. And neither can they... ha!
All moo!

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[jog]

Who knows? Stick with Risdon- they may have done extra up-to date tests on the marks on her jaw. ( I'm no CSI viewer , just remembering there was a previous debate about this 3 years ago, so it's vague in my recollection.)
Pros also combined the jaw finger bruises with abrasions consistent with "grappling" - but we haven't had Dr J.O's interpretation of that.

We do know from thread 1 that the CPS threw the big guns at this case. That since the noughties and all the controversial medical witnesses, that they had really focussed on the problem of scientific controversies scuppering abuse cases. Alongside Risdon, they had the next level up - Consultant Forensics personnel. I'm sure they were meticulous.

What have the 3 defence experts brought to the table - not so much. That Laura Scheimberg ( who rowed with Risdon almost at the path table) didn't even give evidence in the end.

I know what you're saying CP, re pessimism wobbles at the final hurdle, and I recall Jog saying the same fairly recently, but I still think it will be OK, both will be convicted of the charges. The sentences probably won't be long enough though.

Haven't posted for a couple of days but you are right I have mentioned on two occasions that I had a doubt re the jury convicting on the murder and indeed the child cruelty. The reason is regarding the child cruelty is that from my understanding the prosecution have been very specific in pinning their colours to the mast regarding the shoulder injury. I think they should have been more generic about the child cruelty rather than one specific incident and they would have been home and dry. I also think as a back up they should have charged BB with perveeting the course of justice as well to ensure some form of conviction on him. I haven't been present at the trial and of course the demeanour of the defendants plays a huge part in how they are viewed by the jury but and it is a big but a jury will really look long and hard before they convict of murder as they are fully aware of the implications of this and if they do their job as they are asked to then any slight doubt has to go on the favour of the defendant . I really hope that doesn't happen but that is why I put it out there some weeks ago and suggested that the only person who could end up in prison is JG! Here's hoping I am very wrong!

 

[Lola68]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-36478786

I think the defence are clutching at straws. This case makes me so angry and sad - primarily for Ellie and her surviving sister, but also Jennie. The fact that she is still defending Ben is one of the most tragic - and all too common - elements of this case. I'm not in any way excusing her behaviour - at the very least, she had a duty of care to her daughter - but IMO it shows how vulnerable she is.

PS I'm trying not to be biased about this - Ben clearly has huge anger management issues that must have come from somewhere. It's the manipulation that I really struggle with. All IMO

 

[Gigi-G]

Haven't posted for a couple of days but you are right I have mentioned on two occasions that I had a doubt re the jury convicting on the murder and indeed the child cruelty. The reason is regarding the child cruelty is that from my understanding the prosecution have been very specific in pinning their colours to the mast regarding the shoulder injury. I think they should have been more generic about the child cruelty rather than one specific incident and they would have been home and dry. I also think as a back up they should have charged BB with perveeting the course of justice as well to ensure some form of conviction on him. I haven't been present at the trial and of course the demeanour of the defendants plays a huge part in how they are viewed by the jury but and it is a big but a jury will really look long and hard before they convict of murder as they are fully aware of the implications of this and if they do their job as they are asked to then any slight doubt has to go on the favour of the defendant . I really hope that doesn't happen but that is why I put it out there some weeks ago and suggested that the only person who could end up in prison is JG! Here's hoping I am very wrong!

Thanks Cottonweaver n CP for putting this out here. And ty Jog for giving us yr valued response.

I get the impression. From various different tweets and clippings from MSM, that JG is laughable in her time on the stand. Both on defence and pros. She if I look at her responses from a Jurors point of view. Comes across as a Naive, yet cold and calculating bit of a dim witt of a woman. A bit like a sandwich missing it's filling. Or the lights are on but no one's at home. I think even down to the point where she incriminates herself. By putting BB above anyone else. Stating that in black and white in her diary or a note. Above HER children.
In a way BB over the years of 'torture' of being with her. He has in actual fact groomed her. To the point he has broken the once proud, pretty, intelligent young woman she used to be. In fact they've groomed each other. She wants HIM and will do anything to keep him. Including perverting the course of Justice and turning a blind eye to the beatings SHE MUST of known Ellie was receiving at an alarming rate. It was becoming more difficult to keep the professionals at bay. And tbh. I'm pretty certain in saying. She would of moved out of the area if this hadn't of happened. Name changes. Blah de blah. All to protect HIM not the girls.
Pure EVIL

And as for Mr BB (bully boy) I'm sure the Jury have seen his antics. And thought what an Ar***ole he really is.
I really do hope Mr FitzG really fires both barrels at them both. Becuz. If they walk.. or even had more kids OMG smdh... I can't even go there.. please Jury. Deliberate wisely. Don't be fooled. Go over the evidence. Where it doesn't make sense n ask why...why? Becuz it's lies. Lying to protect themselves. Looking for an outcome like in the first time he was sent to HMP.

Praying [emoji120]

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