GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #2

[cottonweaver]

I don't think that was from their court. I presume jury have been out all afternoon. Is anyone there at all? I have some of my colleagues at the Bailey on other matters so may see if they can pop in and find out. I would hope there is a verdict soon always a worry the longer it goes on . I say this as usually I defend cases and our feeling is the longer it goes on the more chance you are in with a shout of a not guilty verdict. I have viewed this case from a very different perspective to he one I often have ie I really hope they are convicted of all matters. If BB is convicted only of child cruelty the worry is he will be released immediately as he has served the equivalent of a 4 year sentence already having been remanded since March 2014 I believe. Fingers crossed !

Yes fingers crossed Jog.
They could be taking their time as the panel has some people like us on there!? 100 pages of minutiae analysed! LOL

 

[cottonweaver]

I only said a 'bit' - sorry.

But yeah, I assume the full article is what they sell, but no papers have bitten today. Or the last week.

Off topic, but I'm starting to realise how shocking court reporting is in the UK.

I don't mean bad reporting, just the lack of it.

I can only assume the figures don't add up for media outlets to have people covering cases.

The idea of televising cases has always horrified me, especially from the perspective of victims or witnesses.

But I'm a firm believer in open justice. People need to know what's happening in the courts.

IDK. I'm not so sure now.

I hope tortoise, flutterby and the other member of the mint-smuggling gang (sorry I've forgotten your username) know how much they are appreciated.

Thank you.

[\RANT]

agree with all this LB.
Don't think televising is the way to go, but live feeds of tweets would be a good way to go.

Then a Websleuths UK version would be good.
Only negative is, when I looked at Court News UK ( never used that site before) I was mind-boggled at the number of squalid criminals in the UK!

 

[Tortoise]

Judge still summing up at 3pm this afternoon after some morning legal argument, according to lawpages, jury hasn't gone out yet.

 

[Tillymint]

I would love to know what the judge has been saying, it's a shame the reporting on this case has been so scant.

 

[Gigi-G]

Sign up Gigi - Richie Sambora has registered with them. He reads it when he's on his loo in LA.

I have been watching the OP trial, which thankfully occurred whilst this BB JG trial is not being reported , at the same time as trying to read up about the EU so I can decide which way to vote!! Crazy but i started out certain and the more I read, the more undecided I became.

Ooh I might have to then lol.
Yeah I'm again following the OP trial. Altho I thought it would of been better tried before a new Judge. As Judge seems to have a soft spot (possibly) which is why OP got the sentence he did.
Then an even earlier release date as he was allowed home under a tag system. So he cannot leave home between whatever hours. Effectively house arrest.
As OP claims he's a broken man since all the details from the first trial. Made him physically sick.
Judge is still trying to cut him a leaner
Custodial sentence.
So I can see this trial bein very interesting.. (;

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[flutterby]

Broken man? urgh. Try not shooting your girlfriend, OP. She's dead, you're not, I think you had the much better outcome.
Her poor father? He's a broken man

 

[Gigi-G]

Sign up Gigi - Richie Sambora has registered with them. He reads it when he's on his loo in LA.

I have been watching the OP trial, which thankfully occurred whilst this BB JG trial is not being reported , at the same time as trying to read up about the EU so I can decide which way to vote!! Crazy but i started out certain and the more I read, the more undecided I became.

Ummmmmmm as for voting I'm doing the hokey kokey... one leg in one leg out.... idk and I turn it all about. 😂

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[Gigi-G]

It would have been great if it was/is him LB. Shushing the rabble in court 8

But when Judge was I assume by his shushing up there. Meant court 8. Wouldn't that be his summing up? Cuz weren't they hoping for a verdict Friday? Which would work out about right?
At BW case I'm sure it was open to public. Unless it was just cuz the person who ran the fb page for Paedophiles was granted permission to sit in. Idk..

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[Gigi-G]

OP trial is picking up steam
I think they're hoping for a speedy sentence by Friday too.

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[Tortoise]

Still summing up and legal submissions going on.

 

[Supernovae]

Was anyone from here in court today?

 

[cottonweaver]

Let's hope for a verdict on Friday? See you all here then.

 

[michelle230]

Hi - yes I was at court this afternoon.
I have been going for quite a few afternoons over the past couple of weeks. I actually wrote a long post yesterday but when I pressed send it got lost and I couldn`t face rewriting the whole thing!!!
This PM was the judge`s summing up of all the medical witnesses. It really was damming. The few witnesses for the defence which came after those for the prosecution seemed so weak by comparison. It was daunting listening to it.
Re the behaviour of BB and JG over the days I have been there. This sounds strange and it is only my opinion but BB - at times anyway - seemed to show at least some pain/shame whereas JG showed none whatsoever. She was busy listening intently, nodding like a Churchill dog when it suited her, and scribbling copious notes to pass to her counsel, no doubt over petty, minor things - the actions of a desperate woman who is in total self denial. He hung his head a lot, or had his head in his hands as various times e.g. when the defence were discussing how he went out for a walk "to clear his head" instead of calling 999. Also when the unbelievable catalogue of injuries/fractures that Ellie had sustained were listed and dissected at length and in many different ways today, with numerous graphic details of the different impacts on the brain. To hear a seemingly never ending roll of damages sustained by repeated trauma and to hear the impact of these......well....for him to be forced to sit through that and listen to the actual effects of his gross violence in real medical terms....there was nowhere for him to run. He just had to sit there and hear it all.
Actually, on Friday his own defence pointed out to the jury that he was "a thoroughly unpleasant man".....followed of course by "..but that`s not what you are judging him on..". I guess that his counsel felt it was damage limitation to state the obvious so that he could soften it by his follow up remark.
She (JG) stood next to me outside having a cigarette just before going in after lunch. It felt surreal to watch her standing there so calmly, knowing who she was and what she had done.
Just to add that the judge is finishing his directions tomorrow - the defence of BB and JG. He hopes to be finished by lunch time. He plans to sent the jury home for the afternoon then and sent them out on Friday morning to consider their verdict.
Hope my post is helpful and.....I did warn you that I wouldn`t be as good as Tortoise!!! Are you going to be there tomorrow or Friday, Tortoise?
Best wishes
Michelle

 

[cottonweaver]

Another case in today's paper - what on earth is going on in the UK?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-killed-attention-seeking-toddler-court-hears

Mother and partner killed 'attention-seeking' toddler, court hears
Jurors told 13-month-old Noah Serra-Morrison’s injuries were similar to those arising from a car crash or fall from building

oah Serra-Morrison was found dead on 21 November 2015 after suffering 15 fractures to his body, one a 15cm wound across his skull. Medical experts said the 13-month-old’s injuries were so severe they were similar to those arising from a car crash or a fall from a building.

Jurors at Luton crown court were told they were likely to have been caused by the little boy being deliberately and violently swung against a wall or floor or by his limbs being twisted with “severe force”.

But his mother, Ronnie Tayler-Morrison, 21, and her partner, Hardeep Hunjan, 26, told police, paramedics and neighbours he injured himself falling from a cot – a claim prosecutor Jane Bickerstaff QC said was impossible.


She told the court the pair delayed calling paramedics for an hour as they tried to cover up the “deliberate” crime, trying to wash away forensic evidence in a shower in the “blind hope that somehow they might get away with it”. Bickerstaff said the pair repeatedly lied to police during interviews and, after they were released on bail, fled to Scotland – which the prosecutor said was because they knew what doctors would uncover.

The trial heard Noah was subjected to horrific and deliberate abuse for weeks before he died.

The court heard the unemployed couple began living together shortly after Tayler-Morrison separated from Noah’s father in July 2015. Their “chaotic” relationship was fuelled by alcohol and cannabis and based on “love, jealousy and control”, Bickerstaff said.

She told jurors Tayler-Morrison wrote in her diary, “I don’t see life without him, and as much as this sounds selfish I know that I love Noah but I love Hardeep more”.

No doubt "lessons will be learned" after a "Serious case review", once again, forever.....

 

[cottonweaver]

Michele, thanks so much for your feedback!

fascinating. It was just as good as Tortoises, so there.

Sorry about your lost post - it is so easy to do on here.
I make sure I use the remember me tick box when I log in.
Also have lost posts before so I always now Command C copy it before I press send - i know how deeply annoying that is, especially if they are long ones.
Hope to see you back here for verdict day too.

Blimey - you stood next to her on a break.
She sounds hard and it's interesting as to the comparisons in their body language at trial. I don't think people will be surprised somehow.
Brilliant that you got the feeling that the Pros medical evidence was damning compared to the Defence's Van E, Mack & Orphoven. That's how it felt as they were stacking up, from the WS end too.

I would have loved to have gone, but way too far away.

Did you "enjoy" it? Glad you went?
There could be a chance jury are back Fri afternoon then-or is your gut feeling Monday?

You made me laugh at Chruchill dog cause that advert cartoon came into my mind in the past when Tortoise described her head-bobbing

Your description of BB having to listen to the combined weight of all the detailed medical injuries really was evocative too- nowhere to run.

Wondering if JG reacted when the Defence said he was "thoroughly unpleasant"!

 

[cottonweaver]

PS Michelle, your gut feeling was not even any stress in JG when she was on a - break?

Was she hiding away from the rest of the smokers or couldn't care less?

 

[michelle230]

Thanks Cottonweaver for you kind comments! And I`ll take your good advice when writing a message so I don`t have to yell in frustration when a message disappears into cyberspace!
The reason that I go to the courts when I have time is to study the people..their behaviour..their relationships. I try to work out who they are, what they`re thinking, where they`re coming from. Do they believe their own lies? Do they feel? What is their own background?
Just think - BB and JG stood to make SO much money out of Ellie - they were suing left right and centre - damage to reputation, wrongful arrest, wrongful imprisonment, him unable to work because of what was "done to him", deprivation of years of family life etc etc. And they may not care about Ellie - but they sure as heck must have cared about all that lovely dosh that was coming their way in compensation. And yet, still...still with all that money at stake..he still couldn`t control himself. I`m sure he curses himself - not because of what he did to his own daughter, but because he`s lost his lottery win.
Yes, she was smoking right outside the door in court where the defendants, jurors etc go in. Quite relaxed. Quite fine.
On a different note, on Monday PM one of the jurors on the case was ill so there was no court. I ended up going to another (very different) case that I am also interested in. Perversely it is at the opposite end of the spectrum. It is how a mother ended up committing a crime for her adult son. Her son is in prison serving a long sentence for a drugs gang, drive by shooting. He (they) are from a very wealthy family and he attended the best private schools but his ambition from when he was a teenager was to be a "gangsta". His mother and girlfriend and a (corrupt) police officer are on trial for illegally accessing police files with details of protected witnesses who gave evidence against her son. Really shocking breach of security which should never have happened.
The mother, Diana Lank, (girlfriend Lydia Lauro, police officer Hayden Cheremeh) in this case simply cannot accept what her son is and what he did.
A very different case but very interesting and the same self denial of truth!
Regards
Michelle

 

[michelle230]

P.S. Gut feeling - verdict will be Friday afternoon!

 

[peedoffinny]

.
She (JG) stood next to me outside having a cigarette just before going in after lunch. It felt surreal to watch her standing there so calmly, knowing who she was and what she had done.d
Snipped from Michelle's quote.

I have a hard time reconciling her notes and searches for spells to make BB love her, and all of the nonsense she wrote begging for bb to love her, with the cold hardness she seems to emote. The pictures I've seen of her make her look like a tough cookie, but yet her writings seem the exact opposite. Just seems strange to me.

Off topic, but my new avatar is our new kitten (Migzy) peaking over the laptop screen while I'm reading Webslueths. Can anybody tell what it is because I can't - LOL.

 

[Legally Bland]

Thank you for sharing, Michelle.