GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #2

[Gigi-G]

I think it's gonna be a double bubble on the pain meds tonight. I think I've aged 20 years in the last 2 hours. :/

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[Gigi-G]

And a lot of that was a not so brilliant idea of the Grumpy one to watch Big Brother! :0

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[flutterby]

I accidentally fell asleep for 6 hours this afternoon/evening.

Going to be awake allll night

 

[Gigi-G]

I accidentally fell asleep for 6 hours this afternoon/evening.

Going to be awake allll night

It happens lol. Just a few glasses of the chilled wine in the fridge with my meds I'm on and I'll be very nearly hopefully to zzzzzland . It's been quiet here tonight. Mind you it is Friday night.

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[Supernovae]

It's been a pretty long trial, so they may take a little while just going through the volume of evidence before coming to a decision.

 

[Supernovae]

I accidentally fell asleep for 6 hours this afternoon/evening.

Going to be awake allll night

I actually did the same thing after my last (but one) post because my computer was being slow. There wasn't actually supposed to be a four and a half hour gap between those two posts. :doh:

 

[Pink Dahlia]

Hi everyone
I've followed this thread for weeks now but not yet posted.

I'd like to just comment on the charges. Murder/manslaugter.

IIn my opinion, it * was * manslaughter. I don`t think that BB set out to kill Ellie - I don`t think he was capable of thinking through his red mist!
Will be there on Monday!
Michelle x

I saw Tortoise also linked the definitions. I think this still causes confusion to the general public. I hope you don't mind if I try and explain it a bit.

Although BB 'maybe' didn't set out to kill Ellie but whatever he did to her that day, that caused such horrific head injuries, you have to ask was that intentional. Did he deliberately assault her in such a vicious manner that would have resulted in those injuries. If he did deliberately assault her, by whatever means that we haven't actually established, then her resulting death from such a vicious attack would be classed as murder. He can't say ' yeah I smashed her head against the wall, causing her skull to break but I didn't mean her to die'. Any reasonable person would understand that carrying out such an attack would possibly result in serious injuries. This is murder, whether he intended her to die or not.

Alternatively, manslaugter would cover a scenario where for example, BB slapped Ellie across the face causing her to fall back. As she fell she banged her head on a surface whereby her skull was fractured. In this scenario BB did intend to cause harm, ie a slap, but no reasonable person would think a slap would result in horrific skull fracture. Therefore a charge of manslaugter would be a better fit.

There are are obviously other alternatives and I have simplified the definitions but I hope this makes it a bit clearer.

 

[Pink Dahlia]

This is a horrific case as well. But once again social services say we have learned a lesson from this . I am sorry but they are learning lessons at the expense of children dying! I believe some of the blame lies at the door of social services re Ellie's case. They should not have placed her in the care of 2 people se did not really know and then stop all visits after 3 months! They should have continued with spot checks ! If the parents don't like it tough , they should understand it is for the best interest of the child and that should be the parents concern as well I especially if they have nothing to hide! We were told lessons would be learned after baby p and the Victoria climbie case many years ago but still the cases continue. Social services are overworked we know that but still!!!! Sorry rant over , I just find it incredibly sad when needless deaths of children could be avoided

Regarding the the social services I'd just like to put my bit in. I've used Jog's quote but there have been many others throughout the thread. It's been my understanding that BB had his conviction for the 2007 incident quashed because of the medical findings and experts testimony and new findings coming to light. This however didn't say to the world that he was an innocent man. Being let out of jail on appeal didn't mean he was innocent of all wrong doing, he was let out because it was an unstable conviction (or whatever, I can't remember the exact phrase). This was why the children weren't returned to him / them at this point. The social services still believed him to be a danger and he was required to go through the Family Courts to fight for the children back.

BB and JG then had their lengthy court battle and it was decided that he was actually innocent and was in no way responsible for the injuries that Ellie received at 7 weeks old. Judge Hogg was delighted at being able to reunite this family. The children were promptly returned.

From the viewpoint of the social services this is a man who has been completely exonerated by the High Court. He was proven to be completely innocent of any criminal injuries. The social services are unable to keep the children away from their parents as the court has said they are in no danger.

The social work visits after the reunion would have been standard for any child going to a new home. The social services wouldn't be there because of possible abuse/neglect as this is an innocent man remember. They would only be able to do this is further evidence of abuse arose. Which looks like they were fast approaching that stage as the school were starting to show concern and BB perhaps suspected the GPs of alerting them just before Ellie died.

It was the actions of the Judge that wiped the slate clean for BB which IMO forced the hand of Social Services to dismiss the history of all suspicions. I can't see how Social services could justify keeping Ellie on the 'At risk' register after this. They would be seen as persecuting an innocent family. I'm confident though that individuals within SS would have been fuming at this judgment and still suspected the worst. Which sadly is what happened here.

 

[cottonweaver]

If it's anything like the jury I was on, they will be

1. Putting their phones in the safe
2. Forming a queue for the one ladies toilet and one mens toilet, and eventually the women will say they may as well use the gents also if the gents don't mind
3. Realising that the toilet does not flush properly and calling the jury minder back to ask for a plumber
4. Finding their mugs, tea bags/coffee and biscuits brought from home to share, and working out that it takes 10 minutes to fill the kettle by the tap in the toilets that drips out water
5. When everyone has finally visited the loo, 15-20 mins, and all are seated around the table with their refreshments, they will elect a foreman/woman

So, give them half an hour before they take a show of hands.

I predict they will be back at around 12.15.

LOL. Thanks for the Reality Checker .

PS Were you forewoman last time?

 

[Tortoise]

LOL. Thanks for the Reality Checker .

PS Were you forewoman last time?

Hehe! Trust me eh?!

No, I was asked if I would do it and I said I would if no one else put themselves forward, and then the 'grandfather' of the group stepped forward, a legal clerk in his early life, who enjoyed regaling us all with tales from his past, and I thought, yeah, he'll love it. And he so did.

 

[cottonweaver]

Hi everyone
I've followed this thread for weeks now but not yet posted.

You may be late to posting PDahlia but you still require

:wagon: :welcome: :toastred:

...your official welcome from us all on this thread.


as we await the verdict :couch: :smiliescale:

 

[cottonweaver]

Hehe! Trust me eh?!

No, I was asked if I would do it and I said I would if no one else put themselves forward, and then the 'grandfather' of the group stepped forward, a legal clerk in his early life, who enjoyed regaling us all with tales from his past, and I thought, yeah, he'll love it. And he so did.

Aww, next time don't be so self-effacing or you'd be wasted.
Bet it made grandpa's year though , so nice choice. Plus you got the anecdotes.

When you likely go down for sentencing, like a loony or 'professional" gallery attender/court junkie, you can place mints on all the seats in the public gallery with a WS card - get you on commission for the WS owner - then get your knitting out.

Do I think you can really knit - No!
What about crocheting JG a "dream catcher"? She'd like that.

Apols to all for the fatuous humour - stuff on another case is sending me loopy.

 

[Tortoise]

Aww, next time don't be so self-effacing or you'd be wasted.
Bet it made grandpa's year though , so nice choice. Plus you got the anecdotes.

When you likely go down for sentencing, like a loony or 'professional" gallery attender/court junkie, you can place mints on all the seats in the public gallery with a WS card - get you on commission for the WS owner - then get your knitting out.

Do I think you can really knit - No!
What about crocheting JG a "dream catcher"? She'd like that.

Apols to all for the fatuous humour - stuff on another case is sending me loopy.

'Course I can bloody knit! Pfft. I'll make her a BB-catcher, to hang on her cell wall. Ha, good idea, if I can smuggle the mints past that dreaded guard. I'll have to stash them in my socks.

 

[Gigi-G]

Scratches head...... wew I woke up in a totally different place to where I was on here. The cleaning fairies have been busy.. I do hope things get sorted. ):

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[Gigi-G]

Scratches head...... wew I woke up in a totally different place to where I was on here. The cleaning fairies have been busy.. I do hope things get sorted. ):

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My Pms aren't being sent so sorry ya'll. I'm not ignoring you I just keep having msg failed if it persists contact administration. ):

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[cottonweaver]

'Course I can bloody knit! Pfft. I'll make her a BB-catcher, to hang on her cell wall. Ha, good idea, if I can smuggle the mints past that dreaded guard. I'll have to stash them in my socks.

OK Then

Don't tell me you wear white plimsolls, tea dress and titfer to court. None of this fits my mental image of you!

( That is MsMarple for anyone unfamiliar)

 

[Tortoise]

OK Then

Don't tell me you wear white plimsolls, tea dress and titfer to court. None of this fits my mental image of you!

( That is MsMarple for anyone unfamiliar)

Jeez, since when did I give you permission to root around in my holiday photos.

 

[Gigi-G]

Are WE ALL crazy on here I can hear the lurkers ask.......

NOPE BUT IT BLOODY WELL HELPS TO BE!

:evil: [emoji23]

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[Pink Dahlia]

Thanks Cottonweaver

I stumbled across websleuths whilst looking for BB info and took days to thread through the two threads. THEN it took me ages to get registered and then when I did it wasn't able to post .... then the trial took a weeks break. So I'm just back this weekend catching up again

i must say I have thoroughly 'enjoyed' (if I can say that) the posts on this thread. I'm not ghoulish, but the level of insight and information from the posters is excellent. I have especially liked the first hand account of Tortoise and Michelle from their time in the gallery (sorry I'm sure there were others but can't remember). The links are first class, I really have met my matches when it comes to finding info on Google.

But im here, just in time for the verdicts and I really do hope they get lengthy sentences. (Notice my confidence in that it'll be guilty verdicts). I'm only disappointed that JG hasn't been charged with more. I'm not convinced that on the morning Ellie died that JG wasn't involved in something before she left for work. Whether that be that Ellie had already received her fatal injuries or even the first fracture and she was still alive when JG left. I'm not saying that she inflicted them but she would have known about them. That's just my opinion.

 

[Gigi-G]

Thanks Cottonweaver

I stumbled across websleuths whilst looking for BB info and took days to thread through the two threads. THEN it took me ages to get registered and then when I did it wasn't able to post .... then the trial took a weeks break. So I'm just back this weekend catching up again

i must say I have thoroughly 'enjoyed' (if I can say that) the posts on this thread. I'm not ghoulish, but the level of insight and information from the posters is excellent. I have especially liked the first hand account of Tortoise and Michelle from their time in the gallery (sorry I'm sure there were others but can't remember). The links are first class, I really have met my matches when it comes to finding info on Google.

But im here, just in time for the verdicts and I really do hope they get lengthy sentences. (Notice my confidence in that it'll be guilty verdicts). I'm only disappointed that JG hasn't been charged with more. I'm not convinced that on the morning Ellie died that JG wasn't involved in something before she left for work. Whether that be that Ellie had already received her fatal injuries or even the first fracture and she was still alive when JG left. I'm not saying that she inflicted them but she would have known about them. That's just my opinion.

Welcome Pink Dahlia

Ahhhh we are a delightful bunch. Talented to! Hehe.
Tortoise likes to suck mints n hide them in her sock. And knit BB catchers!
Oh the mind boggles. There are more restrained posters here to. With extra valuable in puts.
We are all champing at the bit so to say. Especially when the Judge entered the Manslaughter charge. I think it's a case of making sure everything is in place. So the case cannot be re retried.
As these 2 have had Solicitors. Running around like headless chickens.
We all know what we want to happen but hmm who knows roll on Monday!

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