UK - Healthcare worker arrested on suspicion of murder/attempted murder of a number of babies, 2018

[JosieJo]

I've no idea if anyone she knows has anything bad to say about her but we certainly would not hear about it in the press sub justice
Imo I doubt this is a cover up by the hospital..massive risk putting so many cases into open court

 

[Marantz4250b]

I've no idea if anyone she knows has anything bad to say about her but we certainly would not hear about it in the press sub justice
Imo I doubt this is a cover up by the hospital..massive risk putting so many cases into open court

She was first arrested back in mid 2018 though, then again in 2019 and for a third time in November when she was charged. Each arrest was accompanied by press coverage. I find it inconceivable that in all that time there isn't a single comment from anyone who actually knows her, or has known her in her now 31 years on the planet, which is negative, uncomplimentary or disparaging in nature. Not one. People LOVE to trash others off and they love to "be in the know" and if anyone had the slightest bad experience of her it would be all over the internet by now. Yet there is simply nothing other than people saying how lovely she is. One bloke who knew her through an ex girlfriend says she's a bit socially awkward but that's the only remotely negative thing I've ever found about her and I don't actually consider that a "negative" in any event. In fact, lots of serial killers tend to be supremely outgoing, over confident and arrogant(think Beverley Allitt) so if anything that's something else which points away from her being guilty.

Believe me, we'd have heard about it.

 

[JosieJo]

She was first arrested back in mid 2018 though, then again in 2019 and for a third time in November when she was charged. Each arrest was accompanied by press coverage. I find it inconceivable that in all that time there isn't a single comment from anyone who actually knows her, or has known her in her now 31 years on the planet, which is negative, uncomplimentary or disparaging in nature. Not one. People LOVE to trash others off and they love to "be in the know" and if anyone had the slightest bad experience of her it would be all over the internet by now. Yet there is simply nothing other than people saying how lovely she is. One bloke who knew her through an ex girlfriend says she's a bit socially awkward but that's the only remotely negative thing I've ever found about her and I don't actually consider that a "negative" in any event. In fact, lots of serial killers tend to be supremely outgoing, over confident and arrogant(think Beverley Allitt) so if anything that's something else which points away from her being guilty.

Believe me, we'd have heard about it.

At each point of arrest she was still sub justice ...usually the minute a court case is over the press release numerous stories from people they know.
Granted I'm surprised there's not much on Facebook but imo that may be more down to her social circles.
Hospital staff are forbidden by their code of conduct from commenting on Facebook which would have been a big part of her life.

We know a lot about Beverley Allit now ...but how much did we know about her sub justice?
Also I think we have to take into account the time distance between now and Allit
Sub justice rulings are much tougher now than back then

 

[Marantz4250b]

At each point of arrest she was still sub justice ...usually the minute a court case is over the press release numerous stories from people they know.
Granted I'm surprised there's not much on Facebook but imo that may be more down to her social circles.
Hospital staff are forbidden by their code of conduct from commenting on Facebook which would have been a big part of her life.

We know a lot about Beverley Allit now ...but how much did we know about her sub justice?
Also I think we have to take into account the time distance between now and Allit
Sub justice rulings are much tougher now than back then

Oh I know all this but regardless of the legal rules it rarely stops Joe Numpty from posting stuff about people on various discussion boards all over the place. You can go on and find pictures of Jon Venables if you look hard enough and there is a very severe order in place preventing such things. There is little you can do about people doing that. Have a Google of "Lucy Letby discussion" or similar and trawl through all the various results. There isn't a single negative comment anywhere from anyone who claims to know her. If there were the slightest doubts as to hr character by anyone who knows her they would be out there. It's possible that she was the most perfectly angelic person up until some point in 2015 whereupon she suddenly changed into a psychopathic child murderer and also stopped interacting with anyone but it's unlikely, I think.

Even as far as the press is concerned, there's still a lot they can report. If the neighbours had said that LL was some sort of strange character who did bizarre things then the press are as entitled to print that as they are to print a comment about her being lovely and sweet; Well, she always seemed up-herself and came over as being a bit distant so the street always avoided her - oh and she used to have massive all-night parties with drinking and debauched goings-on every weekend is a perfectly reasonable thing for the press to report if it has been told to them in good faith, especially if multiple people say the same thing.

If this were Beverley Allitt being charged today and she had been arrested numerous times over a period of years you can guarantee that we'd be able to find comments about her previous behaviour out there somewhere.

 

[Bakers]

I recall that post-mortem procedures were not carried out in many of the cases. I don't know if Sux is one of the routine poisons/substances tested for in PM's when an unexpected/unexplained death happens in hospital.

It is possible that intubation procedures took place as a clinical need but against laid down protocol, due to understaffing and poor working practices/lack of supervision. Errors in establishing the correct dose for the patient could occur in the pre-intubation medicinal procedure.

I have first hand experience of investigating such an occurrence in a hospital, owing to shortages of appropriately trained staff on a night shift, when junior staff operated outside of laid down protocols, to get the job done! I would not be surprised if it has been a common occurrence for a long time.

Succinylcholine: Is It the Perfect Murder Weapon? Not Exactly.

All my own opinion, of course.

autopsies were done on most of the babies at a alderhey hospital but did not include toxicology,blood electrolytes,or blood sugar tests

I think you're right there. I think there will be reporting restrictions put in place about where she is as well.

Oh dear

Oh dear

It's a rag and despised by many....but Baker's post ideally needs a mainstream source!

Nurse arrested over deaths of EIGHT babies is released on bail

Sorry I'm new to this I don't know what you mean?

 

[Marantz4250b]

As an aside to the above, I'm 99% sure that I know where Maxine Carr was living when she was released from prison as myself and the ex heard a barman in a local hotel saying that he'd seen her in the town where he lived. It made sense as the town has secure housing for released hi-profile criminals. Now, there's a very stringent order in place protecting her identity or whereabouts being known yet this guy was quite happy to tell anyone who'd listen. It would have taken very little for that to get on the internet.

 

[JosieJo]

Oh I know all this but regardless of the legal rules it rarely stops Joe Numpty from posting stuff about people on various discussion boards all over the place. You can go on and find pictures of Jon Venables if you look hard enough and there is a very severe order in place preventing such things. There is little you can do about people doing that. Have a Google of "Lucy Letby discussion" or similar and trawl through all the various results. There isn't a single negative comment anywhere from anyone who claims to know her. If there were the slightest doubts as to hr character by anyone who knows her they would be out there. It's possible that she was the most perfectly angelic person up until some point in 2015 whereupon she suddenly changed into a psychopathic child murderer and also stopped interacting with anyone but it's unlikely, I think.

Even as far as the press is concerned, there's still a lot they can report. If the neighbours had said that LL was some sort of strange character who did bizarre things then the press are as entitled to print that as they are to print a comment about her being lovely and sweet; Well, she always seemed up-herself and came over as being a bit distant so the street always avoided her - oh and she used to have massive all-night parties with drinking and debauched goings-on every weekend is a perfectly reasonable thing for the press to report if it has been told to them in good faith, especially if multiple people say the same thing.

If this were Beverley Allitt being charged today and she had been arrested numerous times over a period of years you can guarantee that we'd be able to find comments about her previous behaviour out there somewhere.

Unfortunately we will have to agree to disagree..she may well have nothing at all negative to be said ...but id put money on us hearing things at a later date
As for Allit is pretty much impossible to know how much would be printed in this era imo

 

[Bakers]

I’m also not in the group of ‘she couldn’t have done this’, never judge a book by its cover works both ways, just because someone looks lovely, sweet, kind, caring. A monster can be lurking beneath the surface, they are just luckier in that they don’t ‘look’ like someone capable of murder. If she looked differently would people think she was capable of this? Appearances mean nothing, and people who are as callous as to commit these acts in their place of work against tiny defenceless babies don’t ‘look’ a certain way. I’m sure everyone thinks she’s lovely because that’s the image she portrays. Sometimes those who seem overly ‘nice’ are the ones with something to hide. I believe she is very clever and has everyone who knows her fooled. MOO

She's more than clever if she's guilty of these murders.she's managed to murder 8 babies atempted to murder 10 other babies in one poxy year, fool every top expert in the hospital because none of them new it was murder.the police have said these babies were murdered.I don't know how no medical evdenice has pointed to murder but the police are and have there sights on one nurse

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I've no idea if anyone she knows has anything bad to say about her but we certainly would not hear about it in the press sub justice
Imo I doubt this is a cover up by the hospital..massive risk putting so many cases into open court

I don't know if you've read all the background to this case.

The hospital referred itself

autopsies were done on most of the babies at a alderhey hospital but did not include toxicology,blood electrolytes,or blood sugar tests



Sorry I'm new to this I don't know what you mean?

I

autopsies were done on most of the babies at a alderhey hospital but did not include toxicology,blood electrolytes,or blood sugar tests



Sorry I'm new to this I don't know what you mean?

Everyone is new, it's just that some are newer than others. I've discovered there's a load of stuff I'm not doing quite right

As you made a factual statement it is expected that you to reference it to a mainstream media or law enforcement source. I do this by copying and pasting a hyperlink to the source. In this case I referred to the MSM source that corroborated your statement as I was replying to it.

Follow the link for the full picture: Rules - Etiquette & Information

 

[JosieJo]

I don't know if you've read all the background to this case.

The hospital referred itself


I


Everyone is new, it's just that some are newer than others. I've discovered there's a load of stuff I'm not doing quite right

As you made a factual statement it is expected that you to reference it to a mainstream media or law enforcement source. I do this by copying and pasting a hyperlink to the source. In this case I referred to the MSM source that corroborated your statement as I was replying to it.

Follow the link for the full picture: Rules - Etiquette & Information

Yes I have ...that was my point ..the hospital referred itself

 

[Whitehall 1212]

She's more than clever if she's guilty of these murders.she's managed to murder 8 babies atempted to murder 10 other babies in one poxy year, fool every top expert in the hospital because none of them new it was murder.the police have said these babies were murdered.I don't know how no medical evdenice has pointed to murder but the police are and have there sights on one nurse

With the environment in question I think the opportunity and means are readily available, should a healthcare worker wish a patient harm. This applies to all those who had authorised access to, what must have been, a secure clinical area.

The unit was understaffed and the numbers of patients coming through the unit was not recognised until the analytics were done well down the line.

For me the big questions will be:

1. Did the staffing issues pressurise staff to act outside of expected protocols, resulting in unintentional critical errors?

2. Was/Is there something in LL's background that gave her motive to want to harm her patients?

3. Did the systematic failures in the department provide the perfect opportunity to act out hidden thoughts/feelings, or was it the catalyst to the realisation of a God complex when allowed to work unilaterally without appropriate oversight?

4. Are there unaccounted for deaths and unexpected collapses, which LL had no dealings with?

The report from the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health makes for fascinating reading and really digs down into what was happening within the unit:

Service Review Countess of Chester Hospital NHS Foundation Trust: (Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health Invited Reviews Programme)

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Yes I have ...that was my point ..the hospital referred itself

Apologies, my earlier response was a partial one.

The hospital referred itself once the unexplained deaths and collapses had been brought to the attention of senior managers outside of the neonatal department. Eventually, it was established there was no readily identifiable clinical explanation. This necessitated the department being downgraded as an immediate response by the hospital once the data analysis supported the concerns.

The NHS has an absolutely massive cultural problem with openness and accountability in departmental junior and middle management. A**e covering has been the name of the game for donkeys years and it goes all the way to senior management when they have taken their eye off the ball and get found wanting. I have personal experience of this and it's not pretty when personal integrity causes one to take on the Minotaur.

There comes a point when the situation is such that, external investigators, be they clinical or criminal, have to be notified because the situation has got too hot to handle, irrespective of how it will reflect on those at the top and the reputation of the organisation.

Just my opinion of course.

 

[JosieJo]

Apologies, my earlier response was a partial one.

The hospital referred itself once the unexplained deaths and collapses had been brought to the attention of senior managers outside of the neonatal department. Eventually, it was established there was no readily identifiable clinical explanation. This necessitated the department being downgraded as an immediate response by the hospital once the data analysis supported the concerns.

The NHS has an absolutely massive cultural problem with openness and accountability in departmental junior and middle management. A**e covering has been the name of the game for donkeys years and it goes all the way to senior management when they have taken their eye off the ball and get found wanting. I have personal experience of this and it's not pretty when personal integrity causes one to take on the Minotaur.

There comes a point when the situation is such that, external investigators, be they clinical or criminal, have to be notified because the situation has got too hot to handle, irrespective of how it will reflect on those at the top and the reputation of the organisation.

Just my opinion of course.

I have worked for the NHS for 34 years in nurse management for 20 years of that.
A big percentage of hospital departments across the country in all specialities would come out underfunded and understaffed ..if a review was made to the extent The Countess had.
Without hearing the evidence obviously we have no idea how this will go.

These are just some of my thoughts

The hospital has already put itself through massive scrutiny and been shown to be so ineffective that for some time the service had to be halted....im not really sure what is left to be covered up ?

For whatever reason LL was identified as a common factor in the deaths years before her arrest so I'd fully expect a lot of the evidence to show she cared for these babies and rotas and documentation brought her to the intention of the trust.

 

[Marantz4250b]

For whatever reason LL was identified as a common factor in the deaths years before her arrest so I'd fully expect a lot of the evidence to show she cared for these babies and rotas and documentation brought her to the intention of the trust.

I don't see any evidence of that at all. All of the reports mention that the hospital/trust called in the police in order to rule out any criminal involvement in the deaths, or words to that effect. There is nothing anywhere that suggests that LL was in the frame or under any suspicion prior to the police being asked to look into things. If the hospital had any suspicion of that then surely they wouldn't have let her anywhere near the place but I don't think she was suspended until the date of her first arrest in July 2018.

 

[Bakers]

I don't see any evidence of that at all. All of the reports mention that the hospital/trust called in the police in order to rule out any criminal involvement in the deaths, or words to that effect. There is nothing anywhere that suggests that LL was in the frame or under any suspicion prior to the police being asked to look into things. If the hospital had any suspicion of that then surely they wouldn't have let her anywhere near the place but I don't think she was suspended until the date of her first arrest in July 2018.

yes thats right after the hospital couldnt link the high number of deaths they called in police to rule out criminal involvement and thats how we have got to this stage.

 

[JosieJo]

I don't see any evidence of that at all. All of the reports mention that the hospital/trust called in the police in order to rule out any criminal involvement in the deaths, or words to that effect. There is nothing anywhere that suggests that LL was in the frame or under any suspicion prior to the police being asked to look into things. If the hospital had any suspicion of that then surely they wouldn't have let her anywhere near the place but I don't think she was suspended until the date of her first arrest in July 2018.

Appologies that was not meant to be my point ...it should read before her "charge" not arrest ..I was not suggesting the hospital definitely knew she was involved before police involvement.
But my point remains the same...I suspect there will be links to her and each baby and its virtually impossible if the trust looked at these cases themselves her name would have been linked to some degree albeit not enough initially to suspend her

 

[JosieJo]

— An NHS source said Ms Letby was moved into administrative duties in late 2016

Does this not suggest that her name had been flagged up to some degree before police involved?

Chester hospital baby deaths: Nurse Lucy Letby arrested on suspicion of murdering eight babies

 

[Marantz4250b]

— An NHS source said Ms Letby was moved into administrative duties in late 2016

Does this not suggest that her name had been flagged up to some degree before police involved?

Chester hospital baby deaths: Nurse Lucy Letby arrested on suspicion of murdering eight babies

It could suggest literally anything. Was this after the report came out when the unit stopped taking babies born under a certain number of weeks? Perhaps if that was the case then the workload dropped off?

Also, it was suggested further back on this thread that "administrative duties" often meant that a person was seen as more senior and it was akin to getting a promotion?

It could also suggest (perhaps strongly) that she was in no way suspected of doing anything at all. Are we to believe that if the hospital were of the opinion that a staff member was having an undue influence on deaths that there would be any question as to whether they would let them anywhere near the premises until they had carried out a full investigation? I'm no expert but I doubt that any hospital which suspected one of it's employees of being a serial killer whilst at work would allow them to remain at work for a couple of years. If the fears turned out to be true and she'd managed to continue killing they'd be crucified. People may end up in prison because of it.

Being put on those duties suggests nothing as far as I can see. Nurses are put on different duties all the time.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I have worked for the NHS for 34 years in nurse management for 20 years of that.
A big percentage of hospital departments across the country in all specialities would come out underfunded and understaffed ..if a review was made to the extent The Countess had.
Without hearing the evidence obviously we have no idea how this will go.

These are just some of my thoughts

The hospital has already put itself through massive scrutiny and been shown to be so ineffective that for some time the service had to be halted....im not really sure what is left to be covered up ?

For whatever reason LL was identified as a common factor in the deaths years before her arrest so I'd fully expect a lot of the evidence to show she cared for these babies and rotas and documentation brought her to the intention of the trust.

It is clear from reading the RCPCH report that there were systemic failures within the neonatal unit. One of the many impacts of these was that child deaths and serious incidents were not subjected to timely and thorough review by the department. This is evidence of the culture of apathy, fear and cover up to which I refer. The culture is that if one raises concerns over working practices or leadership then you'll become a target for bullying and retribution.

Only when the the issues became known to senior hospital management months later and the data was analysed was the concern level raised and action taken by the hospital management. That the Chief Executive resigned in 2018 and then moved to a senior NHS role in another organisation is somewhat telling of the lack of leadership and responsibility.

The hospital only subjected itself to scrutiny because they had no other option, given the unexplained deaths and collapses. That they took place in a department that was grossly substandard and which would be revealed as such, was a case of taking it on the chin.

LL could quite easily be a convenient fall guy/girl for a failed system. If the evidence against her is not more than circumstantial and relies on hospital rotas/medical records to place her with the patient at given times/treatment interventions then I would certainly have grave reservations over the reliability and integrity of such evidence, given the time periods involved and the desire of others to avoid sanction for mismanagement and dangerous practice.

 

[Marantz4250b]

It is clear from reading the RCPCH report that there were systemic failures within the neonatal unit. One of the many impacts of these was that child deaths and serious incidents were not subjected to timely and thorough review by the department. This is evidence of the culture of apathy, fear and cover up to which I refer. The culture is that if one raises concerns over working practices or leadership then you'll become a target for bullying and retribution.

Only when the the issues became known to senior hospital management months later and the data was analysed was the concern level raised and action taken by the hospital management. That the Chief Executive resigned in 2018 and then moved to a senior NHS role in another organisation is somewhat telling of the lack of leadership and responsibility.

The hospital only subjected itself to scrutiny because they had no other option, given the unexplained deaths and collapses. That they took place in a department that was grossly substandard and which would be revealed as such, was a case of taking it on the chin.

LL could quite easily be a convenient fall guy/girl for a failed system. If the evidence against her is not more than circumstantial and relies on hospital rotas/medical records to place her with the patient at given times/treatment interventions then I would certainly have grave reservations over the reliability and integrity of such evidence, given the time periods involved and the desire of others to avoid sanction for mismanagement and dangerous practice.

I entirely agree. Given the extreme severity of the result of a conviction there needs to be very, very good evidence in the hands of the prosecution! Anything which essentially amounts to Well, she was there at the time or similar just should not make the grade. I'm highly sceptical of them having much more than that though. Highly sceptical.