UK UK - Jill Dando, 37, Fulham, London, 26 Apr 1999

[dotr]

Quite a lot of celebrity mobile phones were hacked back then.

Phone hacking: Celebrities win damages from Mirror Group

Celebrities including Sadie Frost, Paul Gascoigne, and Shobna Gulati are awarded a combined £1.2m in phone-hacking damages from Mirror Group Newspapers.

www.bbc.com

 

[forensicswannabe]

Exactly!

Well not necessarily - to throw my tuppence in, the hitman theory stands up if it was somehow connected to her or someone she knew. Although we know she wasn't tailed, it's not to say that she hadn't told anyone about her movements on the day, giving a rough time she may be at the house. This would give someone a chance to park up nearby and wait for her, remember there were a number of odd vehicles in the area on the day.
IMO I don't buy that a chancer with a gun was wandering the streets that day and just got lucky as she arrived home.

It's not unheard of I also think there is a chance that whoever did kill her might not have intended to and the gun went off this could have been a sexual assault gone wrong which is what I would assume if it was Barry (Although he might have planned a kill that day too both is possible) I believe it was him but I am open to other possibilities I just don't see this as a Hitman at all it's too sloppy or if it is a Hitman Its an armature I believe and must have been hired by someone she closely knew to know exactly where she would be at that time.

 

[davidt]

According to the Netflix documentary phone records showed she rang 3 or 4 people and said she was going to her house that day. Could those calls have been intercepted? Of course we have no idea how many people she may have told in person. Also the police are adamant she wasn't followed. Could she perhaps have been tracked another way?

 

[davidt]

Other reasons to rule out a Hitman is that she was not followed by another car police did extensive work going over every CCTV they could find of Jill's day and never found any car following her which a Hitman would do because she made a last minute decision to go back to her house that she was not longer living in as it as she was in the process of selling it and a Hitman would not know that they would if they was going to kill her go where she was currently staying and they would not be waiting outside her old house in hope that she would arrive by chance. Even if you don't agree with me that it was Barry I think we can agree that it was likely someone who came upon her by chance or did not know she no longer was living there and again happened to come upon her by luck that she happened to arrive their that day.

Just a small point. If the Netflix documentary is correct she didn't make a last minute decision to go to her house. She had planned it as part of her day and had rung some people to say she was doing so. If nothing else it does open up the possibility someone could have known this.

 

[Inspector Evans]

Other reasons to rule out a Hitman is that she was not followed by another car police did extensive work going over every CCTV they could find of Jill's day and never found any car following her which a Hitman would do because she made a last minute decision to go back to her house that she was not longer living in as it as she was in the process of selling it and a Hitman would not know that they would if they was going to kill her go where she was currently staying and they would not be waiting outside her old house in hope that she would arrive by chance. Even if you don't agree with me that it was Barry I think we can agree that it was likely someone who came upon her by chance or did not know she no longer was living there and again happened to come upon her by luck that she happened to arrive their that day.

It was confirmed in court in June 2001 she came back most Mondays to do admin with the property in the process of being sold.

So I reckon if it genuinely was someone local (and/or based in London) it wouldn't take a huge amount of surveillance in the weeks leading up to the attack to note which days her car was parked outside 29 Gowan Avenue and then you get a decent reading she'd be there on the Monday morning you plan the attack.

However she had been away filming in Dublin I think the week before so in 1999 you couldn't just follow someone on Insta/Tiktok and know where they were in the U.K/World.

I believe Farthing's residence was more secluded/gated? And BBC HQ would have endless security around the car parks so in reality her house in a relatively open road was probably the best place to commit the murder in daylight.

 

[TheRockingRev]

It was confirmed in court in June 2001 she came back most Mondays to do admin with the property in the process of being sold.

So I reckon if it genuinely was someone local (and/or based in London) it wouldn't take a huge amount of surveillance in the weeks leading up to the attack to note which days her car was parked outside 29 Gowan Avenue and then you get a decent reading she'd be there on the Monday morning you plan the attack.

Although this definitely makes sense, the only thing that points me away from a local who was in wait for her (like BG) was that I would imagine the times of day she went to visit the house may vary quite wildly on those Mondays. The Monday she was killed it seemed that she did a lot of errands beforehand, which would have added quite a bit of time on from her driving directly from her boyfriend's house.
If someone was aware of her being there on Mondays, I would think that they would have needed a car to park up in, and to keep moving about in, rather than being on foot.
Although it could have meant that someone was there on Mondays to get an idea of her movements, I do think it rules out BG even further as I'm sure his presence in the area would have been noted. Regardless of what people think of him and his IQ, I don't think he was subtle enough to spend weeks beforehand staking out the property without arousing suspicion.

Although IMO, as I have other theories, it's not to say that someone was staking out the property on Mondays and just got incredibly lucky that she arrived when they were there.

However she had been away filming in Dublin I think the week before so in 1999 you couldn't just follow someone on Insta/Tiktok and know where they were in the U.K/World.

This is a very good point, although it may not have varied that differently her line of work would've meant that she would've had different schedules which does make it more likely that it was someone with exact knowledge of her movements that morning IMO

I believe Farthing's residence was more secluded/gated? And BBC HQ would have endless security around the car parks so in reality her house in a relatively open road was probably the best place to commit the murder in daylight.

Yep, you're right. Outside of following her on the off-chance that she parked up somewhere quiet, her house was the logical spot.

 

[TheRockingRev]

It's not unheard of I also think there is a chance that whoever did kill her might not have intended to and the gun went off this could have been a sexual assault gone wrong which is what I would assume if it was Barry (Although he might have planned a kill that day too both is possible) I believe it was him but I am open to other possibilities I just don't see this as a Hitman at all it's too sloppy or if it is a Hitman Its an armature I believe and must have been hired by someone she closely knew to know exactly where she would be at that time.

I think people often get the idea of a hitman wrong. It's taken from the Hollywood model where of course everything goes to plan because the writers and directors make it that way. A hitman in real life is likely not someone who is a killing machine with highly refined skills from a career in special forces (as the movies portray) but a villain who is able to murder.
The slight sloppy nature of it doesn't point to an amateur, it points towards a regular killer for hire. With the best will in the world, and check it against other killings, it won't always go smoothly. You can't allow for witnesses, the victim reacting in a certain way etc. etc. If anything this killing does have the hallmarks of a professional - but one who had to act quickly and efficiently as possible in broad daylight in a standard UK road.

They left no evidence, they killed with a single shot cleanly, there was no noise from the killing or the victim, they got away with no-one really spotting them - that sounds professional to me.
The fact there was a minor touch to her arm is, IMO, neither here nor there. A killer would not know how a victim would respond, so a minor touch to the arm shouldn't be looked at as the work of an amateur IMO.

 

[WestLondoner]

Embedded in the idea that nobody would hang around for hours or days hoping JD would turn up is, IMO, an embedded assumption: that nobody would do so because everybody would have better things to do. This is clearly true of most people, but there's no reason to think it of George.

Let's not forget that he was an ex-con, convicted rapist* with no job and nothing at all to do all day. He thus passed his days LARPing as a soldier, a commando, a karate expert, a relative of Freddie Mercury and GOK what else. He certainly did not fill his time cleaning his flat, learning to cook better, studying a foreign language, trying to get a job - any of the things most of us would do to fill time if between jobs. Instead, he followed women around and photographed them - even though he couldn't afford or didn't dare to have any of the films developed. This was what he did all day.

So he could easily have slotted in all-day lurking. He could have bumbled between one house and half a dozen others, all day long, where in each case he was sexually interested in / preoccupied with the occupant.

Re the well-composed photo of himself (and his eyebrows) in a mask with a gun that's never been found and of which he has refused to disclose the whereabouts, we don't know how many goes he took to achieve this single photo. The entire roll of film could have been duds with only one that came out OK, that being the one we've seen.

* attempted, but IIRC, he actually did it; this was just a lesser charge that was settled on to ensure conviction.

 

[TheRockingRev]

Embedded in the idea that nobody would hang around for hours or days hoping JD would turn up is, IMO, an embedded assumption: that nobody would do so because everybody would have better things to do. This is clearly true of most people, but there's no reason to think it of George.

Oh no I fully agree with that BG and his daily routine. The bloke really didn't have much to fill his days.

Let's not forget that he was an ex-con, convicted rapist* with no job and nothing at all to do all day. He thus passed his days LARPing as a soldier, a commando, a karate expert, a relative of Freddie Mercury and GOK what else. He certainly did not fill his time cleaning his flat, learning to cook better, studying a foreign language, trying to get a job - any of the things most of us would do to fill time if between jobs. Instead, he followed women around and photographed them - even though he couldn't afford or didn't dare to have any of the films developed. This was what he did all day.

I would say more likely didn't dare too. In the days before you could stand at a terminal and print them off, he wouldn't have wanted anyone else to see them. A good point about his finances though - do we know how much money he had from benefits or from family? Obviously not rich, but if look at the cost of obtaining a gun and ammo that's not cheap.

So he could easily have slotted in all-day lurking. He could have bumbled between one house and half a dozen others, all day long, where in each case he was sexually interested in / preoccupied with the occupant.

I have no doubt he could've done, but do assume that Jill Dando was right place/right time or had he lurked there before? It's just although a London street, it was reasonably quiet and affluent. The latter usually means more neighbourhood security. There's enough comings and goings / curtain twitchers to have seen someone about. Although he may not have stayed in the area long, there aren't sightings of him up to the day she was killed. Even after his pictures/videos were put out after his conviction, no-one said 'I saw him near her house before' - strange, particularly as you may get one at least who probably hadn't, but just wanted 15 minutes of fame.

Re the well-composed photo of himself (and his eyebrows) in a mask with a gun that's never been found and of which he has refused to disclose the whereabouts, we don't know how many goes he took to achieve this single photo. The entire roll of film could have been duds with only one that came out OK, that being the one we've seen.

Although if this was the case I'm pretty sure those other photos, and they probably would've been not too far off the mark on getting him frame, IMO would've been mentioned by now. The press, and police when they were due to convict, wouldn't have hesitated to use the phrase 'dozens of pictures brandishing a handgun' even if they were from the same occasion. From what I recall there was one interview from the police that said amongst the photos from the flat was a single photo of him holding the gun - but that didn't clear up whether it was already developed or was on the rolls of film that they took.

* attempted, but IIRC, he actually did it; this was just a lesser charge that was settled on to ensure conviction.

 

[TheRockingRev]

One other thing that has recently struck me - BG's obsession with Freddie Mercury, pretending to be his cousin.
There are photos of BG in front of Garden Lodge, Freddie's Kensington home. At that time it was lived in solely by Mary Austin, Freddie's former girlfriend who inherited it. She was in her early 40's, blonde, debonair, slim - not 100 miles away from a description of Jill Dando or Princess Diana to be honest. I wonder if she ever encountered BG? It almost seems like the exact target he would've gone after.

 

[WestLondoner]

The other thing about BG is that his stint in prison could have been where he acquired the knowledge or contacts involved in an illegal gun or illegally-reactivated one.

 

[forensicswannabe]

If Barry George did do it and I believe there is a strong chance he did at least he spent 8 years in Prison rather than not be punished at all and completely getting away with it.

 

[TheRockingRev]

The other thing about BG is that his stint in prison could have been where he acquired the knowledge or contacts involved in an illegal gun or illegally-reactivated one.

Absolutely. But the question is, could he have been smart enough to reactivate one, or the knowledge to change a blank firing pistol into a live one. If done incorrectly, just by a tiny bit, they can go seriously wrong.

The only thing about obtaining one is that it's not actually that easy to get hold of one - supplying a firearm is just as punishable as owning one (albeit not as serious as murder of course). BG wasn't a smart man, would someone have been willing to sell him a gun knowing he could say where/who he obtained it from? I know there are ways of getting one where it is done in such a way that unlinks individuals (like some drug deals) but could he have done so? Not impossible, but IMO unlikely. Criminals are not keen to sell guns to just anyone - it's why so many murders in the UK are not carried out by 'regular people' with firearms.

The gun in the picture may not be real. I've seen so many 'softair' pistols that looked just like the real thing, including sliding to re-load just like a real weapon and that cost about £20 and were easily obtainable from hobby shops.

 

[WestLondoner]

If it were not real then it would have been greatly to his advantage to have produced it for inspection.

 

[TheRockingRev]

If it were not real then it would have been greatly to his advantage to have produced it for inspection.

It really would - but this is why it would be good to know when the photo of him with it was taken. Something else, if anyone has the answer, for someone interested in the SAS and the military - were any weapons found at his address?

 

[Kasparthecat1]

Just finished Brian Cathcart's book. Iirc there was no evidence of ammunition nor the means to tamper with it found at his address.

 

[Kasparthecat1]

I've just been watching the Netflix doc again. It features the Efit of "sweating man at bus stop" which apparently was discredited. According to this doc, "sweating man" was apparently a local undertaker who was being chased by someone.

So - was sweating man at bus stop the same man as "running man" seen dodging traffic? At what point in the investigation was he ruled out?

I quite enjoyed the documentary but the timeliness are difficult to follow.

 

[davidt]

I find it very difficult to form an opinion on BG. I'm very much on the fence with him. I'm not convinced he's innocent but I'm not convinced there's the evidence to convict him either.

We know the sort of person he is and what he did in the past. However that's not evidence of involvement in this case. It makes him a person of interest. There seems little hard evidence. He was in the area 4 hours earlier but how many dozens or hundreds of other people were in tbe area during that period?

It's interesting that Nick Ross thinks he did it but JDs agent finds the idea ridiculous. Shows how differently you can look at the same information.

Seems to me there are two scenarios. Either someone with a gun just happened to be passing at the precise moment JD pulled up or someone was waiting there. I find the first scenario highly unlikely albeit not impossible. If someone was waiting was it because they KNEW JD was visiting or were they waiting on the off chance perhaps based on watching JDs movements over a period of time. I wonder how easy it would be to hang around the property for an extended period or over a matter of weeks without being noticed. I don't think anyone noticed BG or anyone else hanging around regularly did they?

 

[Inspector Evans]

I've just been watching the Netflix doc again. It features the Efit of "sweating man at bus stop" which apparently was discredited. According to this doc, "sweating man" was apparently a local undertaker who was being chased by someone.

So - was sweating man at bus stop the same man as "running man" seen dodging traffic? At what point in the investigation was he ruled out?

I quite enjoyed the documentary but the timeliness are difficult to follow.

Never seen the Netflix docu, the BBC one from 2019 is pretty good.

Watched it again the other night. Interestingly Jill Dando's cousin dosen't believe BG did it and thought that in the weeks after his arrest. She thought the Serbian hitman angle had a possibility about it.

 

[Inspector Evans]

I find it very difficult to form an opinion on BG. I'm very much on the fence with him. I'm not convinced he's innocent but I'm not convinced there's the evidence to convict him either.

We know the sort of person he is and what he did in the past. However that's not evidence of involvement in this case. It makes him a person of interest. There seems little hard evidence. He was in the area 4 hours earlier but how many dozens or hundreds of other people were in tbe area during that period?

It's interesting that Nick Ross thinks he did it but JDs agent finds the idea ridiculous. Shows how differently you can look at the same information.

Seems to me there are two scenarios. Either someone with a gun just happened to be passing at the precise moment JD pulled up or someone was waiting there. I find the first scenario highly unlikely albeit not impossible. If someone was waiting was it because they KNEW JD was visiting or were they waiting on the off chance perhaps based on watching JDs movements over a period of time. I wonder how easy it would be to hang around the property for an extended period or over a matter of weeks without bring noticed. I don't think anyone noticed BG or anyone else hanging around regularly did they?

What response did BG give in court to the witness accounts of him apparently in Gowan Avenue that morning? I assume no comment but if was four hours then half 7 is early to be randomly wandering the streets unless he regularly did it?

I guess he could've offered the defence of he was walking the disability help centre but doubt that would be open at 8am.

In any case Jill Dando's car would not be there at that point so I don't really see a scenario where you just hang around for hours on end as otherwise you go away for an hour or two and she could just arrive back and go inside and be relatively safe.

Completely different if BG was seen loitering outside from 10 ish as then you do feel with lunchtime approaching then JD could turn up at any point if that was her favourite deal to deal with admin (and contracts for the house sale would still be sent to that address).

I do actually wonder what the thought process was for the shooter that morning. Just wait for her to arrive and kill on doorstep as happened. What would've been the outcome if she'd been in that morning, knock on the door and do it when she opens the door or attempt to come inside the house and attack her?