UK UK - Jill Dando, 37, Fulham, London, 26 Apr 1999

  • #661
Even so, there was a fibre matching a pair of trousers owned by BG and also the GSR on Jill matching what was found in BG's pocket. The fact that the GSR was later ruled unreliable and inadmissible due to a technicality doesn't mean it wasn't there.

There WAS minimal forensic evidence, and such as it was it linked the crime to the prime suspect.
A single fiber and a tiny teeny GSR particle that was most probable the result of cross contamination (no, it was not deemed unreliable due to a technicality, it was deemed unreliable because it was found after the jacket in question was handled by multiple police officers, people who handle guns quite often). And that fiber was not anything rare, it was just a polyester, dyed with commonly used dyes. These are very dubious pieces of evidence.

Also, BG is a creep and a stalker, but also has very low intelligence levels. He was literally caught either in the act, or because he was egregiously bad in covering his tracks. I cannot believe that a man like that, caught in Kensington Palace with a burglar kit, would be able to commit this particular murder without leaving a highway of traces behind and, considering he is a narcissist, that he would be able not to brag that he commited such a notorious crime.

There is also a question of "how". JD's flat was in a residential area, just houses, no shops or other public places. It's not an area where a criminal could just casually hang out waiting for an attractive woman to appear, without catching a ton of unwanted attention from the locals. The possibility that anyone, let alone BG, could just bump into Jill accidentally and decide "This is it" is next to none. And there is no evidence he was stalking her.

Then there is question of "why". BG was assaulting women sexually and attempted rape, the problem is JD was not sexually assaulted, nor there was any attempt to rape her. She was coldly executed in a blitz style attack. Whoever did it had only one aim: to kill JD. That does not fit known crimes of BG, at all.
 
  • #662
The likelihood that BG or anyone intent on killing JD could have gone to her house at that time and found her entering would be extremely low, yet improbable events happen all the time. They are called “flukes”, “black swans” etc. They cannot be ruled out completely but, they must be disregarded if you are going come to any conclusion as to what actually happened.

Lowlifes like BG would not have access to the technology needed to intercept her electronic devices and wouldn’t have connections to insiders who might have information about JD’s daily activities. It is equally improbable that more sophisticated individuals or criminal organizations who have such access. Only a government supported espionage operation could have that access. As previously discussed, a planned “hit” by such a group is unlikely but, again, not absolutely impossible.

A individual with a gun seeking to kill someone, but not a particular individual, seems the most likely explanation. These sort of random killings do occur; very infrequently yet far more often than Spy Agencies kill News Presenters. Anyone who would do such a thing could be a dysfunctional, antisocial type like BG but just as easily could be a very normal appearing employed individual. The odds might favor the guy like BG but not by much. A nut case like BG was really a great suspect and can, by no means, be ruled out, but he not only fails to meet the “beyond all reasonable doubt” standard, there is no basis to claim it is “more likely than not”, that he is guilty. There are just no other real suspects and little likelihood of finding new evidence that might lead to resolution, so resolution is looking increasingly unlikely.
 
  • #663
A single fiber and a tiny teeny GSR particle that was most probable the result of cross contamination (no, it was not deemed unreliable due to a technicality, it was deemed unreliable because it was found after the jacket in question was handled by multiple police officers, people who handle guns quite often). And that fiber was not anything rare, it was just a polyester, dyed with commonly used dyes. These are very dubious pieces of evidence.

Also, BG is a creep and a stalker, but also has very low intelligence levels. He was literally caught either in the act, or because he was egregiously bad in covering his tracks. I cannot believe that a man like that, caught in Kensington Palace with a burglar kit, would be able to commit this particular murder without leaving a highway of traces behind and, considering he is a narcissist, that he would be able not to brag that he commited such a notorious crime.

There is also a question of "how". JD's flat was in a residential area, just houses, no shops or other public places. It's not an area where a criminal could just casually hang out waiting for an attractive woman to appear, without catching a ton of unwanted attention from the locals. The possibility that anyone, let alone BG, could just bump into Jill accidentally and decide "This is it" is next to none. And there is no evidence he was stalking her.

Then there is question of "why". BG was assaulting women sexually and attempted rape, the problem is JD was not sexually assaulted, nor there was any attempt to rape her. She was coldly executed in a blitz style attack. Whoever did it had only one aim: to kill JD. That does not fit known crimes of BG, at all.

Why would police officers who handle guns be more likely to contaminate BG's jacket with GSR than BG himself, who also handled them? You can't say the GSR was "most probably" the result of cross contamination. It COULD be the result of cross contamination, but it also could have been there because the man who owned the jacket also owned exactly the type of gun used to shoot Jill.

You're attempting to dismiss the available evidence by calling it "dubious," but nobody has ever said the evidence is more than circumstantial. Regardless, the killer still had to match ALL of the known evidence--and out of thousands of people who were investigated, BG was the only one who did. Not because he was the local kook, but because he owned the correct gun, the correct clothing, was seen on the street that morning, had a habit of following women to their door, etc.

Having seen BG's interviews--including his police interviews--he's no fool. Book smart, maybe not. But he's no idiot in my view. His supposed lack of intelligence is regularly used to say he couldn't have done something like this. But what was "this" exactly? Someone walked up to Jill on a quiet morning on a quiet street, had a brief scuffle, pushed her to the ground, shot her, and then walked away. How much evidence would that be expected to leave behind? I would contend not necessarily very much.

BG had committed numerous assaults, but didn't seem to leave behind a huge amount of forensic evidence in any of them. He almost certainly committed at least one rape, yet was only convicted of attempted rape due to a lack of evidence.

BG has always denied things. He still denies it was him in the "mask" photo. He denies owning the gun despite writing it down in his ledger of purchases in his own handwriting. Your idea that he would brag about it because he's a narcissist doesn't actually seem to fit the evidence of BG's typical behavior. Quite the opposite. If anything he seems to be the kind of manipulator who would do something right in front of your face, and afterwards claim you imagined it.

So many of the theories about Jill's death revolve around nobody knowing she was going to be there that morning. Yet many murders really are just a matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Maybe it is unlikely and freakishly unlucky that someone like BG would be randomly walking past Jill's house when she arrived home, and shoot her for no apparent reason. But is that really less likely than some kind of international revenge plot involving hitmen and getaway cars? Personally I don't think so.

You're making the assumption that because Jill was found dead with a gunshot wound to the head, and no other signs of assault beyond some bruising where she was grabbed and forced down, there was no other intent. We simply can't say that one way or the other. What if the killer was trying to rob or assault Jill, shot her during the scuffle, and ran away without completing his original plan? How would anyone, whether us or the police, ever be able to say with absolute certainty?

As it is, BG *was* seen loitering around the street and other nearby streets that morning. He *was* known to wander the streets all day, following random women, trying to strike up conversations with them and generally being a nuisance. He *was* known to follow women to their doorstep. He *was* known to attack women on their doorstep and push them down to the ground. He *was* known to carry weapons and use them in a threatening manner.

The fact that Jill died is the *only* thing that doesn't fit BG's usual M.O. And criminals do escalate their behavior.
 
  • #664
Mark Webster, a forensic scientist, said at BG’s trial that the fibre evidence was unreliable.

“A single grey polyester fibre is not in my view significant evidence. It is not something you should rely on.

"If you see evidence as rungs on a ladder, this one is going to give way under weight."


The fibre, like most of the evidence, is circumstantial. It doesn't prove anything categorically, in and of itself--hence why I said "evidence, such as it was."

But such evidence can be used to rule people in or out. If no fibres like those found at the scene had been found on any of BG's property, you could probably rule him out. But they were found, so you can't rule him out.

So many people were ruled out due to not fitting one piece of evidence or another. BG not only couldn't be ruled out, he also fit very specific pieces of evidence --such as the weapon--which very few others would fit.

That's the nature of a circumstantial case.

So much of the case against BG (the actual evidentiary case that is, not just ‘reasons why he’d be high on a list of suspects’) is like this: full of holes and often contradictory.

He’s a loner with an intellectual disability who’ll habitually harass women in the street, except for the one woman he’s meant to be ‘obsessed’ with, who - despite her no longer living in the neighbourhood - he stalks over days/weeks/months in such a stealth-like way that she appears to have no idea of his existence, until the moment he very skilfully (like a professional hitman), or perhaps accidentally (like a fool), puts a bullet through her head and kills her, for reasons that are never explained.

He’s dumb enough to shoot her dead in broad daylight, but smart enough (or perhaps lucky) that no one sees him doing it. And crucially, he’s careful to dispose of all evidence in the flat he doesn’t care for, where bin bags and cardboard boxes pile high in every room.

I don't think anyone on this thread has claimed BG was obsessed with Jill or had been stalking her in any way, stealthily or otherwise. He lived nearby and had likely walked past her house hundreds of times. Personally I think it's far more likely he was doing his usual street wandering and Jill was the unlucky woman who ran into him that day. If she hadn't gone home that day, she likely would still be alive.

What evidence would you expect there to be in BG's apartment nearly a year after the murder? The clothes he was wearing and the weapon he used would be the only evidence he carried away from the scene. All of those things could be very easily disposed of, potentially before he even got home. We know he owned guns due to his own ledger of purchases, and yet no weapons or ammunition were ever found. Clearly he disposed of them at some point.

I don't think the evidence is contradictory. Nor do I think BG is the idiot he's often made out to be.
 
  • #665
Why would police officers who handle guns be more likely to contaminate BG's jacket with GSR than BG himself, who also handled them?

Because:

- it was a single particle

- that particle was found after that jacket was handled by multiple police officers, draped on the mannequin and so on.

If BG fired a gun one would expect more residue on his jacket than just one tiny speck in the pocket.

You're attempting to dismiss the available evidence by calling it "dubious," but nobody has ever said the evidence is more than circumstantial.

In my opinion it is dubious.


Regardless, the killer still had to match ALL of the known evidence--and out of thousands of people who were investigated, BG was the only one who did. Not because he was the local kook, but because he owned the correct gun,

As far as I know no guns were found in BG's flat, only some pictures of him, posing with something that might be a 9 mm gun.

the correct clothing

Most of men have at least one dark suit in their wardrobe. Additionally some witnesses described the man as wearing wax jacket, which BG did not have AFAIK.

was seen on the street that morning,

Pretty please bring in the source for this claim. For all I know BG was nit recognised in sny pickup line by any of the witnesses.

had a habit of following women to their door, etc.

He didn't seem to have a habit of randomly shooting women though.


Having seen BG's interviews--including his police interviews--he's no fool. Book smart, maybe not. But he's no idiot in my view. His supposed lack of intelligence

He was tested by professionals and I value their opinion more than yours, I am sorry.

So many of the theories about Jill's death revolve around nobody knowing she was going to be there that morning. Yet many murders really are just a matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Maybe it is unlikely and freakishly unlucky that someone like BG would be randomly walking past Jill's house when she arrived home

The witness (postman) saw a man watching Dando's house. That does not seem random.

As it is, BG *was* seen loitering around the street and other nearby streets that morning.

Again, please, provide a source of that claim.

He *was* known to wander the streets all day, following random women, trying to strike up conversations with them and generally being a nuisance.

That means: behaving exactly unlike the man seen by the witnesses, who was talking only to his phone, was not following random women and was not a nuisance in any aspect.
 
  • #666
I don't think anyone on this thread has claimed BG was obsessed with Jill
They have.

What evidence would you expect there to be in BG's apartment nearly a year after the murder?
In BG’s flat police discovered 150 photographs plus over 4,000 undeveloped images that he’d taken whilst stalking the streets of West London. Just one photo of JD, JD’s car, or JD’s house, would’ve provided police with proof that at some point BG had previously come within striking distance of the victim. They found nothing.

They also looked at the lists he’d made, of addresses and car registration numbers of almost 100 women. Again, nothing among them could be linked to JD’s murder.

You could argue BG had had ample time since the crime to dispose of evidence, but this is a man of limited intelligence, who maintained a chaotic and unhygienic home. Could he have meticulously removed everything incriminating pertaining to this case, in a flat that was full of so much stuff police could barely find his bed or see the floor? To me it’s inconceivable.

And why keep everything else? He was smart enough to bin photos of JD, undeveloped images of JD, and any documentation of JD’s life and routine, but too dumb to not realise that the stuff related to all the other women that he’d stalked might’ve made him look a bit suss?

Meanwhile this apparent gun fanatic disposes of the murder weapon - surely his pride and joy - yet keeps the coat that he supposedly wore during the murder hanging on his kitchen door? It’s a no from me.
 
  • #667
You're making the assumption that because Jill was found dead with a gunshot wound to the head, and no other signs of assault beyond some bruising where she was grabbed and forced down, there was no other intent. We simply can't say that one way or the other. What if the killer was trying to rob or assault Jill, shot her during the scuffle, and ran away without completing his original plan? How would anyone, whether us or the police, ever be able to say with absolute certainty?
We can’t be certain, because no one saw the murder, but AFAICT the narrative that she was shot as soon as she returned to her Gowan Avenue home hasn’t ever been a source of contention. This is what Jonathan Laidlaw QC told the court at BG’s second trial:

“It appears that she was immediately shot by the gunman as she was about to unlock the front door of her house. Her keys were still in her hand when she was shot.

“It appears pretty clear that the victim was taken entirely by surprise: the gunman approaching her from behind as she was about to unlock the door to her house and then shooting her before she could do anything to protect herself.”

She didn’t even have time to drop her keys, or use them to defend herself. I think it’s unlikely JD even saw her killer - imo she was dead before she even had the opportunity to face him, never mind engage him in a ‘robbery or assault gone wrong’ type of struggle.

None of the many women who came forward to report being harassed and intimidated by BG (and these were certainly very frightening and sometimes dangerous encounters) ever recalled him threatening them with a gun. This just wasn’t BG’s MO. It’s true perpetrators can escalate their behaviour, but there’s really no evidence prior to JD’s murder that he was doing anything out of the ordinary (by his standards).
 
  • #668
Additionally some witnesses described the man as wearing wax jacket, which BG did not have AFAIK.
This is a really important point. The coat containing the alleged GSR was a three-quarter length Cecil Gee coat.


JD’s neighbour RH witnessed the killer walking “very calmly away from the scene”. He told the media in 1999 that he saw the man “wearing a Barbour-style jacket”, while at BG’s trial in 2001 he described it as “a dark waxed coat”. At the second trial, it was reported that RH described it as ‘a dark blue or black Barbour jacket’.

BG’s coat looks nothing like a waxed/Barbour jacket.

Only RH and another neighbour in Gowan Avenue actually saw the killer. There were lots of witnesses who described seeing ‘a man’ in Gowan Avenue on the morning of the murder - none described the individual they saw as wearing a coat like BG’s either.

To be charitable, some described their man as wearing an ‘ill-fitting suit’ - perhaps they mistook BG’s large coat for an oversized suit jacket? But others said the man they saw was ‘smartly dressed’, and in a suit. Some claimed he was wearing a trilby hat, at least one was adamant he was wearing glasses.

It’s simply incorrect for anyone to say BG was wearing ‘the correct clothing’.
 
  • #669
that particle was found after that jacket was handled by multiple police officers, draped on the mannequin and so on.
Another really good point.

Let’s not forget that, after a reexamination of the evidence, a second particle was allegedly found, “on tapings on the back of the Cecil Gee coat”.

Defence QC William Clegg told the Court of Appeal in 2007: “Such residue will not remain on a garment being worn for more than about 10 hours.”

As such, and as the Independent reported at the time: “The discovery … lends weight to the theory that the specks … attached themselves [to the coat] at, or near, the time of Mr George's arrest.”

I’m not sure whether this evidence of a second particle later featured in BG’s defence or not, as by then the evidence given at his original trial concerning the first particle had essentially been ‘neutralised’. But imo it provides more weight to the theory that by breaking the chain of custody of the coat, police contaminated it with ‘GSR’.

Sources:


 
  • #670

This is an interesting article, from the Guardian, 2001.

Paraphrasing, a section says that once George/ Bulsara was identified as a person of interest, he was reinterviewed with his mother present. According to LE, he was easily able to recall his whereabouts the day of Dando's murder, "as if he was expecting to be questioned". He recalled (paraphrasing again) that he was wearing a cotton jacket.

Witness RH saw the perp wearing a dark blue or black waxed Barbour-type jacket. Barbours are cotton.
 
  • #671
Paraphrasing, a section says that once George/ Bulsara was identified as a person of interest, he was reinterviewed with his mother present. According to LE, he was easily able to recall his whereabouts the day of Dando's murder, "as if he was expecting to be questioned". He recalled (paraphrasing again) that he was wearing a cotton jacket.

Witness RH saw the perp wearing a dark blue or black waxed Barbour-type jacket. Barbours are cotton.

Doesn't change the fact BG did not own a waxed Barbour type jacket. Also, cotton is one of the most popular fibers in the world.
 
  • #672
Waxed cotton and cashmere are very different materials. Barbour jackets are distinctly different in style and appearance to three-quarter length overcoats.

In the Crimewatch reconstruction, the killer is clearly depicted leaving the scene wearing a Barbour-type jacket, around thigh-length. This is almost certainly based on descriptions provided by neighbours who sighted the killer.

Witness sightings can be unreliable, of course, but imo a man wearing a three-quarter length cashmere coat would look noticeably different to a man wearing a thigh-length Barbour-type jacket.
 
  • #673
Broadly, those who are incredulous of BG's guilt don't accept the evidence in support of it, while those incredulous of the Serbian hitman theory note that there is absolutely no evidence in support of it.

These are not minor differences of outlook.
 
  • #674
Broadly, those who are incredulous of BG's guilt don't accept the evidence in support of it, while those incredulous of the Serbian hitman theory note that there is absolutely no evidence in support of it.

These are not minor differences of outlook.
Well, I do not believe neither that BG killed Jill, nor that it was a Serbian hitman.
 
  • #675
those who are incredulous of BG's guilt don't accept the evidence in support of it
The evidence alone is thin, but it’s the falsehoods and distortions that plague this case that I take issue with.

BG, a sex offender, was a prolific stalker - there’s ample *evidence* of that. Following, harassing and photographing women, this was BG’s MO. How this relates to JD’s murder has never been properly explained. There’s *no evidence* that he’d ever stalked JD, never mind that he harboured an obsession that turned deadly.

There‘s *no evidence* that his behaviour was about to escalate, that he was ready to deviate from his established pattern of behaviour in order to murder a woman in cold blood with a single shot to the head on the doorstep of a house she rarely visited. It’s perfectly possible to make a series of assumptions, in order to conclude that BG did, indeed, do just that - but the *evidence* to support this is weak.

What other *evidence* is there?

> Only one positive identification of BG, by a witness in Gowan Avenue at 7am - four and a half hours before the murder. Plus a handful of ‘partial sightings’ here and there, of dubious credibility and relevance.

> A fibre on JD’s coat that was too small to be properly analysed, leading even the prosecution’s expert to conclude it gave only ‘weak’ support to the suggestion that it came from BG’s trousers.

> A single particle of ‘gunshot residue’ found in the pocket of a coat that didn’t match the description of the jacket worn by JD’s killer, and which was improperly handled by police.

And that, folks, is your lot. That’s the entire evidentiary case against BG. The incredulity on my part is reserved only for the fact it took the jury as long as 13 hours to acquit him.
 
  • #676
It's worth recalling Nick Ross' summation:

  • He had been seen in the road four hours before Jill’s murder.
  • He had been identified as having been by two separate witnesses near the killing in an agitated state soon after the murder.
  • The witnesses, including a mental health worker, were so concerned about him that in the days after Jill’s murder they had rung the incident room repeatedly.
  • He had returned to both witnesses the following day seeking to persuade them he had been there at different times and in different clothes.
  • He had a history of violence against women, including formal warnings, convictions for sexual assault and a prison term for attempted rape.
Further inquiries revealed that:
  • When under surveillance he routinely stalked women.
  • He had once been found in the grounds of Kensington Palace with a balaclava, a knife and a rope – but was never charged because he was thought to have mental problems.
  • Itsuko Toide, briefly his wife in a marriage of convenience, was so frightened of him that she reported his violence to the police and fled back to Japan. (She later told me she had no doubt he was Jill’s killer).
  • Despite denying he had an interest in Jill Dando or the BBC, undeveloped film recovered from his apartment showed he took photos of women from his TV, kept copies of the BBC’s in-house magazine and had written the name of a female Crimewatch researcher on a Post-It note.
  • Although he denied he had ever owned or held a gun, a reel of undeveloped film was processed and revealed him posing with a pistol.
  • The pistol he was holding was of the same type that killed Jill.
Circumstantial evidence doesn't convince if it could apply to any number of other people, but to how many could that list apply?

The gun shot residue was actually found after he'd been arrested and charged.
 
  • #677
On Nick Ross’s points:

Being seen in Gowan Avenue 4 and a half hours before the murder is evidence of him being in Gowan Avenue 4 and a half hours before the murder, and nothing more. In any case, the strength of this and other witness sightings in this case has been questioned many times, most eloquently imo by Brian Cathcart, here:


An explanation as to why he was seeking to establish an alibi and why he might be fearful of the police was provided a page or two back. A man with mental disabilities acting in an ‘agitated’ manner after a murder has taken place 500 yards from their home doesn’t strike me as odd. One member of staff at the disability centre actually did provide him with an alibi, but the credibility of her recollection was challenged.

The rest of what you’ve posted is evidence that BG harassed and photographed women, obsessed over certain celebrities, hoarded magazines, and was an awful husband. We know all this already.

None of it is evidence that BG killed JD. He didn’t harass or photograph her, nor did he obsess over her.

None of the women that he *did* harass and who testified against him in court mentioned being threatened with a gun.

If he was experiencing a sudden and irresistible urge to kill, then he could’ve murdered anyone. If his victim *had* to be JD, you’d expect that police would have found evidence of a motive for this amongst his possessions. But of course, we know they didn’t. Not because he skilfully disposed of the evidence, but because it didn’t exist.
 
  • #678
RH, Jill's next door neighbour, is the ONLY person to have seen the perp leave Jill's garden that morning, immediately after the shooting. He had a good view of the man, and it was NOT BG he saw. He gave his information to the police on the day of the murder, and he gave exactly the same description in court. Why his information is constantly ignored i do not know.
 
  • #679
None of it is evidence that BG killed JD. He didn’t harass or photograph her, nor did he obsess over her.
In the same way, Mark Chapman cannot have shot John Lennon, because he had never shot John Lennon before.
 
  • #680
The fact he posed in a photo with the same type of gun used, and also wrote down the purchase of said weapon, but denies both is suspicious to say the least !
 

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