UK UK - Jill Dando, 37, Fulham, London, 26 Apr 1999

  • #741
If BG had simply produced the gun he photographed himself with, all these questions would have gone away.
And when that gun doesn’t turn out to be the murder weapon? “The guy was a gun fanatic, obviously he’d have owned more than one, he wouldn’t have been dumb enough to photograph himself with the actual murder weapon, he’s smarter than everyone thinks”.

And on and on and on.
 
  • #742
If the facility as a whole had lunch at 1pm, would 11:50am (over an hour before lunch) be considered "shortly before lunchtime?" I guess it could be, but it seems to be a bit of a stretch.
I agree, it’s messy. Though imo no messier than the ‘positive’ witness sightings of BG that turned out to be anything but.

As Brian Cathcart put it regarding those sightings, “Do three "I'm not sure"s now equal one "That's the man"? If so, what are the other units in the currency? Perhaps two "I think so"s add up to one "I'm sure".”

Continuing the theme, how many partial alibis equal a whole?
 
  • #743
And when that gun doesn’t turn out to be the murder weapon? “The guy was a gun fanatic, obviously he’d have owned more than one, he wouldn’t have been dumb enough to photograph himself with the actual murder weapon, he’s smarter than everyone thinks”.

And on and on and on.
Not really. If the gun had been presented and shown to be unrelated to the one JD was killed with, that's more or less the end of BG as a suspect. You'd have to postulate that he also owned a mysterious second gun that he'd used - for which there's as much evidence as there is of Serbian hitmen.

The fact that he illegally disposed of a gun and lied about owning it is a pretty good circumstantial pointer to guilt.
 
  • #744
You'd have to postulate that he also owned a mysterious second gun that he'd used
People already postulate that the gun in the photo is the murder weapon despite no proof that it is.

Finding a gun in BG’s flat that wasn’t the murder weapon wouldn’t stop people postulating. Almost the entire case against BG is built on a series of postulations, not evidence.

Edit: spelling
 
  • #745
The fact that he illegally disposed of a gun and lied about owning it is a pretty good circumstantial pointer to guilt.
How do we know he disposed of it illegally?
 
  • #746
How do we know he disposed of it illegally?
By the fact that he no longer has it and won't explain where it went. He even denies owning it despite being photographed with it and having kept a record of acquiring it.

If someone lies about owning and then disposing of a gun, it's quite a strong circumstantial pointer to their having a reason to want it not found. You can often make the circumstantial case against several people, but there is not a whole pool of people out there who look and behaved like BG and who also just happened to dispose illegally of a gun.

The thing about BG is that the reason he didn't get compo was that there was no.miscarriage of justice. He wasn't clearly wrongly accused. He was wrongly acquitted.
 
  • #747
By the fact that he no longer has it and won't explain where it went.

That does not make the disposal illegal, considering it was a blind firing prop that did not require a license.
 
  • #748
there is not a whole pool of people out there who look and behaved like BG and who also just happened to dispose illegally of a gun.
We don’t know if the gun could fire live ammunition; even if could, we don’t know if it’s the murder weapon; and we don’t know when it was disposed of. All we have is a series of postulations and suppositions.

Also, this ‘pool of people’ you speak of is a construct of your own which suits your narrative, it’s not based on evidence, or even logic - naturally, people don’t report when they’ve disposed of guns illegally (the clue’s in the name), so how can you possibly know how many generic white males were disposing of guns illegally in London around 1999?
 
  • #749
IMO there's a lot of misleading information being posted by those who defend BG.

One of the three witnesses who thought they had seen BG on Gowan Avenue, TN, picked BG out of the lineup and was very sure it was him she had seen. But because he was clean-shaven on the day of the murder and had a beard during the lineup, she refused to definitively identify him due to his obvious change of appearance. TN had no way of knowing BG had in fact been clean-shaven on the day of the murder, exactly as she said.

The other two witnesses both picked the same two men in the lineup, numbers 2 and 8, as most likely to be the man they had seen. Number 2 was BG. They wouldn't give a definitive identification but they did think BG looked more like the man than not.

During a lineup you're generally told not to make a positive identification unless you're 100% certain. TN was perhaps 99% sure but had the teeniest, tiniest niggling doubt due to the beard; the other witnesses were less sure but nonetheless chose BG as being a close resemblance to the man they saw. The lineups were far from the complete failure Brian Cathcart and others make them out to be.

Yes, it's circumstantial. But it's more circumstantial evidence in favour of the killer being BG. If any major piece of evidence had pointed *away* from BG, he never would have been a serious suspect in my eyes. Instead, every major piece of evidence--circumstantial though it may be-- continues to rule him in rather than out. He's the only potential suspect for whom that is true.

Those of us who are in the "BG did it crowd" are insultingly accused of being blind to other possibilities. Nothing could be further from the truth.

If anyone has in mind another suspect who fits all of the known evidence, I would be more than willing to discuss it. Instead the arguments against BG are an attempt to dismiss the evidence so that it doesn't point where it points. As @WestLondoner has noted, those who believe BG did it rely on the evidence to support that view; those who believe somebody else did it largely rely on being dismissive of the evidence, whilst often espousing theories for which there is no evidence whatsoever.

Every piece of evidence--other than those which suit an argument, such as the killer possibly wearing a waxed barbour jacket--is treated as a joke which can't be taken seriously; appeal to ridicule is a common enough debating tactic, but in this context it comes perilously close to being a straw man.

Take the gun as an example. The gun wouldn't be incriminating if BG had presented it to the police and it had been found not to be the murder weapon. Instead he lied. BG actually did eventually admit to owning the gun after being confronted with incontrovertible evidence. After finally admitting to owning it he claimed to have given it to a friend: of course he couldn't tell the police which friend, and neither the gun *nor* the friend were ever found. How convenient.

The Met's firearms expert identified the weapon BG was holding in the photograph as illegally modified, because it didn't look how that model of blank-firing gun would normally look. Instead it had components--such as a large spring--which were known to be used during modification to live-firing. At this point, the evidence that BG's gun was illegally modified (and therefore illegal to own and dispose of) is stronger than the entirely non-existent evidence that it wasn't.
 
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  • #750
<modsnip - personalizing>



Again, why would that make it "most probable" to get a single particle of GSR from the hands of police officers rather than from the hands of BG himself? Because it suits your argument isn't a good enough reason. Nick Ross cites expert opinion and statistical likelihood in his brilliant essay about the case, and the conclusion he and his experts reached was that there is an approximately three times higher chance that the particle was left there by BG than by any other source:

If we put all of this together, and if all these estimates are approximately right...then, according to Bayes theorem, the evidence of Barry George handling a gun is far from neutral. In fact the probability rises from close to zero to 71%. That means there is almost three times more likelihood that Barry George handled a gun than any other explanation.

Even the scientists whose evidence led to BG's acquittal say their evidence was taken out of context:

At the time of the appeal they reckoned there was a one in a hundred chance the particle could have got into the pocket through incidental contamination. All it needed was for Orlando Pownall, QC for the prosecution, to ask the obvious question: “Are you saying there is a 99% chance that it did not get there by accident?”. Ms Shaw concedes she would have answered ‘yes’.


You're absolutely correct, no weapons or ammunition were found at all. And yet BG had a ledger of purchases, and a picture of himself holding precisely the kind of weapon that could have fired the murder bullet. So those weapons were clearly disposed of at some point. The Met's firearms specialist didn't merely identify the weapon in the photo as "something that might be a 9mm gun"; it was identified as a very specific type of 8mm Bruni blank-firing pistol, which could be crudely and apparently quite easily modified to fire the kind of custom 9mm ammunition used to shoot Jill:

The cartridge appeared to have been subject to workshop modification, possibly to reduce its propellent charge and thus allow it to function as subsonic ammunition. Police ballistics checks also determined that the bullet had been fired from a smooth bore barrel without any rifling, which indicated the murder weapon was almost certainly a blank firing pistol that had been illegally modified to fire live ammunition.


Both you and rvlvr keep making a big deal of the killer supposedly wearing a waxed jacket--because that detail is crucial to your argument against BG's jacket--but from the distance and vantage point of the two primary witnesses on a dreary overcast day, I'm not sure how easy it would be to tell cotton from any other dark fabric. I don't know that I could. YMMV and I'm sure you think I'm wrong.

In any event, the police certainly seemed to think the jacket found in BG's apartment was a good match to the descriptions of the witnesses. In the Netflix documentary, at about 10 minutes and 30 seconds into the third episode, they say:

"We found a coat. The three-quarter length coat which was very similar to the one which witnesses had described as being worn by the shooter."

Moreover, if the Crimewatch re-enactment is accurate, IMO it would have been very difficult for either of the primary witnesses to have clearly seen the length of the coat.

RH, according to the re-enactment, looked down at an acute angle from an upstairs window through slatted blinds. He is cited as the best witness, yet his view appeared to be obscured both by the blinds and by the hedging and walls of neighbouring gardens. Anyone who has looked through closed slatted blinds, as RH does in the re-enactment, would--if they were being honest with themselves--have to admit the view is limited. Yet this is never mentioned and RH is treated like he had a clear view. At the very least, his view of the killer's lower body would be limited by simple physics.

Similarly, if the re-enactment accurately portrays the street as it was at the time of the murder, the neighbour across the road had his view of the killer--and in particular the killer's lower body--obscured by numerous parked cars. That isn't my opinion, it's what is clearly shown when looking at the escaping perpetrator from the POV of the witness:


Neither I, nor to my knowledge the police, have ever suggested that every man sighted on Gowan Avenue that morning was involved with Jill's death. A man speaking on his phone as he stood across the street from Jill's house could have a perfectly innocent reason for doing so--or of course a not so innocent reason.

You wanted proof that BG was seen on Gowan Avenue earlier on that morning. I'll provide it, though I suspect it probably won't be good enough for you. From BG's Wiki page, citing trial documents:

One witness who had identified him as being in Jill Dando's street four and a half hours before the murder and other witnesses who, although they could not pick George out at an identity parade, saw a man in the street in the two hours before the murder who might have been George.


BG's low IQ of 75, and his other learning disabilities, don't make him an idiot who is completely incapable. That is evidenced both by his history of planning big stunts, such as his roller skating stunt or the attack on Kensington Palace, and also his repeated ability to convince others of his lies and delusions of grandeur. His plans usually went wrong eventually, but he got far further with them than many "smart" people would. BG created such a Gordian Knot of false trails and identities that it took a year for the police to unravel it. A man who can do that is not stupid.

BG's supposed lack of intelligence is always highly convenient. He seems to be capable of doing whatever he sets his mind to; and likewise, utterly incapable of tying his own shoelaces when he wants to play innocent. In other words, he shows whichever side he wants you to see:

George seemed to know that there were flaws to his character; he told one woman he befriended that nobody really knew or understood him. "The me they know is not the real me. Perhaps I have another face."

From the same article, these are BG's very own words taken from a note found in his apartment by the police:

A handwritten note found in his messy groundfloor flat in Crookham Road may hint at the truth of what happened on April 26 1999. "I have difficulty handling rejection", George confessed. "I become angry ... it starts a chain of events which is beyond my control."


Regardless of whether BG did or did not have an obsession with Jill Dando specifically, he absolutely did have an obsession with celebrities. He also absolutely did have an obsession with Princess Diana, who had died a little over 18 months earlier and bore an uncanny resemblance to Jill.

Whether planned or happenstance, Jill would likely have been seen as a bigger "prize" for BG than any of the other women. And therefore his sense of rejection would likely be bigger as well.

If BG happened to have a gun in his pocket for some reason, how can anyone be sure he wouldn't use it? The fact that he had never (to anyone's knowledge) done so before is largely meaningless. There always has to be a first time for everything. BG openly admits in his note that he can't control his anger when he's upset and feeling rejected, so I'm not sure why the idea that he could react in such a terrifyingly violent and unexpected manner is so hard to believe.



None of BG's other "obsessions" had been murdered with a gun matching the one BG was known to own. That isn't a minor factor in any subsequent considerations, it's a massive one.

I have no idea whether BG ever had a collection of Jill Dando material. I don't think it really matters one way or the other. But at least in my view, it doesn't take any particular intelligence to know that if you have just killed someone, you get rid of the evidence directly linking you to that person. BG had a year to do so, which is a long time even for the slobbiest of slobs.

As it is, BG did retain certain incriminating pieces of evidence, such as the ledger and the photo of him holding the gun. He also kept a coat that could have been cleaned 20 times in the 12 months since Jill's death. What did BG do when confronted with this evidence? He denied it all. His denials were so complete as to be utterly ludicrous: it wasn't him in the photo, he never owned the gun, he hadn't even handled the gun. Bold-faced lying with the evidence of his lies right in front of him.

BG is a sex offender who was inappropriate with most every woman who crossed his path. Trying to erase potential evidence linking him to one specific person in no way guarantees his obsessive behaviour would end, nor that he would want to destroy his entire sordid collection. He might even have thought getting rid of everything would raise more eyebrows.

Given your current argument, I'm not sure he would have been wrong if he felt that way: a big part of your argument does, after all, seem to be that he couldn't have killed Jill because he had pictures of so many women and she wasn't one of them.



And yet that description, despite it coming from the lead prosecutor, doesn't seem to accurately describe what happened based on the available evidence. It makes it sound like Jill was shot where she stood and had no time to react.

We know that isn't true.

We know Jill had time to cry out; we don't know exactly what she had seen or felt, whether it was cry of alarm, pain, or something else entirely. But we do know she wasn't caught entirely unaware. We also know she wasn't simply shot where she stood and left to crumple in a heap: she was forced down to the ground with her legs bent awkwardly and her nose practically touching the ceramic tiles of the doorstep.

There may not be evidence proving a struggle. But I would contend it's quite unlikely that a fit, healthy woman who had been taken by surprise, would allow herself to be pushed to the ground without fighting back. We know the shot was fired at ground level due to the position of the bullet hole in the front door, so we know without any shadow of doubt that Jill was only shot after the killer had already manhandled her.

Why would it be necessary to force Jill to the ground if she wasn't fighting back and your only intent was to kill her? Why wait until you have her on the ground whether she's fighting or not? That isn't clean and quick. It's actually unnecessarily sloppy and wastes precious seconds. To me it has always felt much more like the gun was used to threaten her into getting down on the floor, but that shooting her wasn't necessarily the plan.

The fact that forensic evidence wasn't found all over Jill's coat where the killer grabbed her is likely due in large part to the paramedics, who left her coat lying in the debris of their attempts to save Jill's life.

Whilst there may not be examples of BG using a gun during prior assaults, there is evidence of him recklessly using guns to scare people:

The Dobbins family lived in South Kensington and one evening there was a knock on the door. It was George, in combat gear and balaclava, and he charged in holding a pistol and fired off a shot.

When the panic subsided they realised it was a blank and he showed them the gun - a gun later identified from photos as having been apparently converted to be capable of firing bullets.

Also, from the same article, evidence that he would wander around with dangerous weapons on his person:

By now he was increasingly filling his jobless days by pestering women in Holland Park in West London. He carried flowers and a 12in hunting knife tucked in the leg pocket of his Army trousers.

Also, disputing the notion that BG had no interest in Jill Dando, is this interesting snippet:

Yet he told police he had never heard of her and would not recognise her - even though before her death he had boasted he knew that someone famous lived in Gowan Avenue - 'a very special lady'.

One of the most well thought out posts I've read on WS
 
  • #751
If I ridiculed you yesterday then that wasn’t my intention, the issue was that the ‘evidence’ you presented is considered a form of pseudoscience, and it was later rightly deleted by the mods.

Perhaps my point about witnesses and alibis came across as facetious, which is fair enough. But it was a serious point. Let’s consider the ‘partial’ witness sightings for a moment. As BC writes:

“The two de Rosnays, for example, described suits of different colours, while Terry Normanton was adamant that the man she saw looked just like an E-fit picture released by police just after the murder – an E-fit later accepted as not being of the killer.”

Are the recollections and testimonies of these women more or less likely to be correct than the recollections and testimonies of the two women at HAFAD who, if correct, could provide BG with an alibi?

Or should we go with the recollections and testimonies of the women at HAFAD who contradicted them?

In the end the only witness sightings that IMO should be treated with any credibility are SM, who has always been adamant she saw BG in GA at 7am; and RH, who saw the killer but has never identified him and has always maintained that the man he saw was wearing a waxed jacket.
 
  • #752
We don’t know if the gun could fire live ammunition; even if could, we don’t know if it’s the murder weapon; and we don’t know when it was disposed of. All we have is a series of postulations and suppositions.

Also, this ‘pool of people’ you speak of is a construct of your own which suits your narrative, it’s not based on evidence, or even logic - naturally, people don’t report when they’ve disposed of guns illegally (the clue’s in the name), so how can you possibly know how many generic white males were disposing of guns illegally in London around 1999?
You're looking at it from the wrong end. A circumstantial case doesn't work if it fits multiple people. If it fits only one person, then it becomes a matter of elimination. Nobody else out there harassed, followed and raped women, went to jail for it hence associated with criminals, owned a gun and lied about it, disposed of it and then chased around trying to establish an alibi. Therefore there was simply nobody else whom this fact pattern fits. It's not like there were ten other people like BG so any of them could have done it. There simply isn't anyone at all.

If this wasn't the murder weapon, all BG had to do was say where it is; he's then just a nutter. He won't. As I said before - funny, that.
 
  • #753
Therefore there was simply nobody else whom this fact pattern fits.
You’ve said this before but again, this is completely without evidence. There’s no one else that you *know* of, but then why would you? Neither you nor I have access to the case file - without that access it’s impossible to make such a claim. And this, of course, assumes that the stalker theory is correct - it may very well be the most likely one, but even homing in on that theory doesn’t preclude people other than BG.

Edit: spelling
 
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  • #754
On the gun, these are the things we know:

BG owned a replica blank firing gun
He was photographed holding it

These are the things we don’t know:

Was it modified to fire live ammunition; if so, by whom?
Was BG capable of making such a modification? If not, who could’ve modified it for him?
When was the photograph taken?
When was the gun disposed of?

There’s evidence it might’ve been modified, and testimony that it could’ve been the gun used, but might and could are doing a lot of heavy lifting here.

Let’s go over the testimony of David Pryor - here’s the BBC’s write up of his evidence in 2001:

"The absence of rifling marks on the bullet casing found in Miss Dando's doorway suggested it was fired from a deactivated pistol that had been reactivated, a blank firing gun that had been converted, or a type of 24-inch handgun manufactured a few years ago with a long smooth barrel instead of a shorter rifled barrel," he said.

Asked if a converted blank firing Brunni - one of the replica and blank firing guns on a price list allegedly made by Mr George - could have fired the bullet, Mr Pryor replied: "I do know of examples of such a conversion but they're uncommon."

But the Italian gun would have needed a new barrel before it could fire live ammunition, he added.

Asked if it could have caused the muzzle marks seen on Miss Dando's head, Mr Pryor answered: "It's possible."

Source: BBC News | UK | Dando fibre 'matched' with accused

So it could’ve come from a converted blank firing gun (though such modifications are “uncommon” and the gun would’ve needed a new barrel). But it could also have come from a deactivated gun that had been reactivated. Or it could’ve come from another type of gun altogether.

No evidence has ever been provided that BG was capable of modifying a gun. No proof he had any ‘criminal connections’ capable of modifying it for him have ever been provided either. BG was a loner.

If the police had shown any of the following - that BG could modify a gun; that BG knew someone capable of modifying a gun for him; that the gun was disposed of after the murder - then the gun becomes damning evidence.

But there’s a total absence of any of those things.

Edited to add BBC link
 
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  • #755
There does not need to be such a list - it would have been an obvious line of defence. BG's lawyers, in response to the police's circumstantial case, could have simply pointed how many people besides BG the details could have fitted, and that the police had not shown it could only be BG.

It's not like they're trying to prove a manslaughter near Fulham football ground on a match day, where the perp was identified as a drunk shouting yob in a Fulham foopbaw shirt holding a can of Tennents. You couldn't point at someone fitting that description and say it must have been him, because that description also fits 70% of the home crowd. You'd have to show it could only have been him.

That's essentially the case that won the police the result the first time around. The question was who could possibly have done this? Was it:

1/ a convicted rapist, stalker, compulsive liar, would-be ninja and weapons and knife obsessive who made sure the firearm he lied about owning couldn't be found, tried to fake up an alibi and had firearm discharge residue in his coat a year later; or
2/ another of the no doubt many people like that who were in that street that day; or
3/ an imaginary Serbian hitman - a sort of Soren Lorensen of gangland?

Not surprisingly the jury went for 1. It's because 1 is so persuasive that BG never got any compo.
 
  • #756
But there’s a total absence of any of those things.
Also a total absence of evidence pointing towards anyone else. BG is a sex criminal who'd been to jail, knew criminals, owned a gun he wouldn't produce and was in the area. Nothing in what's known points away from him - literally nothing.
 
  • #757
Also a total absence of evidence pointing towards anyone else. BG is a sex criminal who'd been to jail, knew criminals, owned a gun he wouldn't produce and was in the area. Nothing in what's known points away from him - literally nothing.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and all that.

BG is a very good suspect, but Prof David Canter (who has consulted on dozens of murder enquiries) said that in his experience most murder cases involve at least two outstanding suspects.
 
  • #758
Also a total absence of evidence pointing towards anyone else. BG is a sex criminal who'd been to jail, knew criminals, owned a gun he wouldn't produce and was in the area. Nothing in what's known points away from him - literally nothing.
How many other sex criminals were living in West London in 1999, never mind the Greater London area? And how many of these had access to a gun? How many criminals did BG know in the late 1990s, bearing in mind his prison sentence was served (iirc) in the early 1980s?

You have to know this stuff before you can make claims such as the ones you’ve made today, I’m afraid.

On the GSR, a second particle was found on BG’s coat that couldn’t have been there since the murder (it was on the back of the coat and would’ve fallen off within hours). The most likely explanation as to how it got there, as argued at the appeal hearing, is via contamination. Possibly in the same way that the first particle came to be there.

Out of interest, assuming police - however innocently - broke the chain of custody re a piece of clothing they’d taken from your home, then used that clothing as the key piece of evidence against you in a murder trial - you’d have no problem with that?
 
  • #759
In this case the evidence is limited but also very specific. The weapon alone is so unusual. The bullet wasn't marked by rifling, which is why the police are so confident it was fired from a modified weapon that had been drilled out to enlarge the bore.

An 8mm blank-firing weapon drilled out for 9mm live cartridges would fit that perfectly. Such weapons are, according to the police, notoriously unreliable in addition to being rare.

How many people in the area had such a weapon, and how many people would rely on one if they had other options?

There really isn't more than one outstanding suspect in this case--unless we assume the police are lying. The police spent a year investigating thousands of leads and found nobody.

It was pure luck that the police ever put the pieces together and found BG, due to his many and varied identities. The fact that his M.O. of following women to their doorstep so closely matches what happened to Jill, and that he is pictured holding the exact kind of weapon used to kill her, would be one hell of a coincidence if he *didn't* do it.

Such coincidences do happen, but...
 
  • #760
There does not need to be such a list - it would have been an obvious line of defence. BG's lawyers, in response to the police's circumstantial case, could have simply pointed how many people besides BG the details could have fitted, and that the police had not shown it could only be BG.
BBM

This is what they did do (eventually). As William Clegg (BG’s barrister in the second trial) said, in the Metro article I linked to the other day, “our approach was we haven’t the faintest idea who did it, but it couldn’t have been Barry”. And the jury agreed.

The defence didn’t need *another* suspect - but the prosecution did need evidence that their *only* suspect was guilty. They didn’t have it.
 

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