UK UK - Jill Dando, 37, Fulham, London, 26 Apr 1999

  • #901
I'm glad the police are investigating still anyways and well I've always been sure it was likely Barry George I've never ruled out the idea of some kind of Assassination from someone else and the Serbia connection has always been thrown around so it makes sense but it's scary to think that the possible motive for her killing was just because she presented some news report on it scary stuff.

In that scenario it would just be a tit-for-tat execution. I doubt Milosevic or anyone that high knew who Jill Dando was but an order could've been given out to kill a western journalist or newsreader in retaliation for Serbian TV HQ being bombed in April 1999.

So she was seen fronting the appeal, bit of intelligence found she was living in London in a residential street and so someone is paid off to kill her but of course counter to all that is she wasn't home at Fulham much at all.

Not sure if there's really any new evidence here bar hazy recollections from over 25 years ago.
 
  • #902
I think everyone will accept that Barry George is/was a serious sexual offender. That doesn't make him the assassin of Jill Dando. The manner of the killing has always seemed to me to be a professional job. I believe we will find out soon, who pulled that trigger, and it won't be Barry George.

What gives you the "soon" hunch?

We all hope we can get a resolution but it's been nearly 30 years now. The 2019 documentary was a great watch as Hamish Campbell was asked if he thought anyone would ever stand trial again for Jill Dando's murder and his answer with a shake of a head was "no" so that says it all for who he still believes is the offender.

I do think it was a trained assassin who did it but unclear what the actual motive was.
 
  • #903
Well that's going to throw a few people into a quandary. But it all seems a bit vague. Where is this CCTV footage from exactly? As a trained assassin, why would they do a 'hit' so cleanly, but then go running off in a blind panic as some witnesses have claimed? And the biggest one, why would they assassinate her? Yes, she fronted a TV campaign, but it's not as if she personally was the voice behind it - plus by never admitting to it, nor even alluding to it, what did the paymasters behind it actually achieve? When Ross McWhirter was assassinated by the IRA, it was because he had been very vocal in his politics - and the IRA were quick to own up as a warning. But with Jill Dando....nothing.

There were recorded calls to the BBC in the days after but that could've been cranks just getting a kick from all the coverage of the murder.

Security on the quiet was stepped up for likes of Tony Hall and other prominent BBC figureheads at the time just in case.
 
  • #904
I would argue otherwise. For something unprofessional, the killer fired one shot, there was no noise from the victim or the weapon that anyone really heard, she lay undiscovered for close to 20 minutes - and all these years later no-one seems to have a clue. Unprofessional or lucky?
I'd go with the latter if anything. Whether it would give the victim time to fight back is neither here nor there IMO, this was a close quarter killing, and therefore needed to be CQ. The killer, and JMO, being a professional knew that the weapon they had wouldn't work efficiently at range, so modified their M.O. by getting close - as a result they must have been professional enough to have been able to adapt their strategy on the day to include getting there without being seen to a tee with her arrival (check), execute the victim without any real sound (check) and escape without raising to much of a scene (check) - that really does point to skill, planning and, well, professionalism.
As for the weapon - we don't really know do we? We know it was a modified blank firer, but it did the job so must have been to a high standard.
What people tend to forget is that in the UK at that time, and even now, firearms weren't in huge abundance. To get a unregistered firearm (remember we'd just been through the aftermath of Dunblane when tougher gun laws, tougher than we all ready had them, were put in place) was pretty darn difficult. It's not like the US. Speak to any of the criminal fraternity back then and they'll tell you that firearms weren't just something you can by - you had to wait for someone to sell them. It's why back then, gun crime was seeing weapons that were 30+ years old sometimes.
Blank firers were the way to go - and these were the prominent weapons that were being passed around the underworld. But even then to get one, either modified or to modify yourself, was something that means you would've been more than likely a professional criminal.
Right. But you've largely contradicted yourself here - a professional gunman isn't going to use an unpredictable modified blank firer! Certainly the suggestions of special forces or ex-Yugoslav paramilitary involvement are completely incompatible with the grubby, messy, probably lucky, nature of the killing. And physical touching and point blank firing are pretty sure signs of a gunman that isn't trained, nor experienced - especially in a situation where there were no realistic constraints that forced this tactic. It has all hallmarks of a first-timer getting hold of terrible equipment and getting lucky in a messy struggle.
 
  • #905
Right. But you've largely contradicted yourself here - a professional gunman isn't going to use an unpredictable modified blank firer!

Well modified blank firer is not unpredictable, actually.


Certainly the suggestions of special forces or ex-Yugoslav paramilitary involvement are completely incompatible with the grubby, messy, probably lucky, nature of the killing. And physical touching and point blank firing are pretty sure signs of a gunman that isn't trained, nor experienced - especially in a situation where there were no realistic constraints that forced this tactic. It has all hallmarks of a first-timer getting hold of terrible equipment and getting lucky in a messy struggle.

Slobo's boys had all the subtlety of angry bull in the China shop. Radovan Stojcic Badza was sitting in pizza parlour with his son, when a man barged in, yelled at the people to lie down and then proceeded to spray Badza with bullets. Pavle Bulatović was killed in similar fashion. Ivan Stambolić was kidnapped during a jog, in broad daylight, by perpetrators in very characteristic van and then executed in the woods by a shoot to the back of his head.

I don't believe it was a Serbian assassin, but certainly not because this crime is not subtle enough for the grubby fingers of the Slobo's boys.
 
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  • #906
Well modified blank firer is not unpredictable, actually.




Slobo's boys had all the subtlety of angry bull in the China shop. Radovan Stojcic Badza was sitting in pizza parlour with his son, when a man barged in, yelled at the people to lie down and then proceeded to spray Badza with bullets. Pavle Bulatović was killed in similar fashion. Ivan Stambolić was kidnapped during a jog, in broad daylight, by perpetrators in very characteristic van and then executed in the woods by a shoot to the back of his head.

I don't believe it was a Serbian assassin, but certainly not because this crime is not subtle enough for the grubby fingers of the Slobo's boys.
A smooth bore modified blank firer would almost certainly be a terrible weapon in terms of performance compared to a purpose-built lethal firearm. They are much more likely to suffer misfires, barrel ruptures, low velocity and much worse accuracy at anything but very short range. It is inconceivable that a 'professional' gunman would choose such a weapon. Certainly not anyone operating with military backing/connections.

Stambolić, Badza and Bulatović were all killed by serious military weapons. Yes the attackers didn't hide their actions - but they knew in that political environment the police weren't seriously going to pursue them. In some ways it helped Milošević to be so brazen, as a statement of power. Obviously that kind of approach couldn't be carried over to a foreign country. And it wasn't anyway - Jill Dando wasn't killed by a squad of soldiers with automatic weapons. She was killed by lone gunman with a barely functioning weapon after a close quarter struggle - all of which suggests a confused set of objectives, maybe with rape as the initial idea.
 
  • #907
They are much more likely to suffer misfires, barrel ruptures, low velocity and much worse accuracy at anything but very short range.
Jill was shot point blank. Low velocity and worse accuracy at anything but very short range were not a problem.
 
  • #908
A smooth bore modified blank firer would almost certainly be a terrible weapon in terms of performance compared to a purpose-built lethal firearm. They are much more likely to suffer misfires, barrel ruptures, low velocity and much worse accuracy at anything but very short range. It is inconceivable that a 'professional' gunman would choose such a weapon. Certainly not anyone operating with military backing/connections.

Stambolić, Badza and Bulatović were all killed by serious military weapons. Yes the attackers didn't hide their actions - but they knew in that political environment the police weren't seriously going to pursue them. In some ways it helped Milošević to be so brazen, as a statement of power. Obviously that kind of approach couldn't be carried over to a foreign country. And it wasn't anyway - Jill Dando wasn't killed by a squad of soldiers with automatic weapons. She was killed by lone gunman with a barely functioning weapon after a close quarter struggle - all of which suggests a confused set of objectives, maybe with rape as the initial idea.
Completely agree I think Barry did it but I don't think he ever intended on killing Jill I think his plan was rape and It just didn't go to plan we also can't ignore the fact he had gun residue in his Coat pocket and tried to get people to Alibi him that day.
 
  • #909
Completely agree I think Barry did it but I don't think he ever intended on killing Jill I think his plan was rape and It just didn't go to plan

The timeline leaves no time for attempted rape and there is no evidence such an attempt happened.

we also can't ignore the fact he had gun residue in his Coat pocket and tried to get people to Alibi him that day.
There was very minuscule amount of gun residue found in the pocket of the coat that was handled before getting tested (long time after Jill's murder) by multiple people, that were also handling guns as a part of their job. I think we can ignore this "evidence" safely.
 
  • #910
The timeline leaves no time for attempted rape and there is no evidence such an attempt happened.


There was very minuscule amount of gun residue found in the pocket of the coat that was handled before getting tested (long time after Jill's murder) by multiple people, that were also handling guns as a part of their job. I think we can ignore this "evidence" safely.
btw, I think that is probably right. This is one of the cases where we have a pretty good idea who did it - certainly I don't think the police have doubts. But the evidence doesn't yet reach the required standard for a conviction. So there's no substantive mystery about the culprit, but an ongoing question about the quality of the evidence.
 
  • #911
Stambolić, Badza and Bulatović were all killed by serious military weapons.
Well, that, plus they were all deeply connected to/part of the regime whereas JD was...very much not. She was a popular British TV presenter and newsreader and really not an assassination target in any case but add to that the risks and logistical difficulties of carrying that out in a foreign country. It sounds like a crime fiction novel (where one would have to suspend quite a bit of disbelief and jump over a few plot holes).
 
  • #912
How do people gauge the walking down the street and seemingly no one getting a proper look at this guy? Just incredibly lucky or elements of a pro?

This wasn't an isolated cul de sac or dead end country path at the dead of night with no one around. It was coming up to lunchtime on a Monday morning in a detour road in West London.

I've also walked past the house a few years ago and it's not like there's a long distance where you can just miss any interaction by the front door, you're pretty much on the pavement there.

All we have is people thinking they saw someone who looked like....etc rather than very certain IDs.
 
  • #913
For a Panorama documentary many years ago the BBC consulted a firearms expert who said you couldn’t even say for certain the particle was gunshot residue, never mind that it came from the shot that killed Jill Dando.


Brian Cathcart’s book goes over how the issue of the particle was discussed at the original trial. For the prosecution:

It was in the final stages of the prosecution evidence that Robin Keeley, the scientist who found the firearms residue particle, entered the witness box. A small, serious man with mousey hair and large spectacles, he proved to be the sort of expert witness who constantly qualifies both his own remarks and those of his questioners. Led by Pownall, he explained what primer discharge residues were and how the particle found on the coat, comprising lead, barium and aluminium, was a chemical match for the particles produced when Dando was shot. Asked how strong the link was in scientific terms, he seemed less than enthusiastic. Such particles were never unique to a particular gunshot, he said, in fact the five basic kinds of primer discharge were 'all as common as each other'. He went on: 'The most you could say is that it could have come from that ammunition - or any other ammunition which had the same composition.' This was not what the prosecution wanted to hear, so Pownall tried again: how common were particles containing the three elements lead, barium and aluminium? 'Not uncommon,' came the firm answer. 'Ammunition with aluminium primers is not un-common.' There followed an hour or more of questioning in which nothing much went right for the Crown, and it reached its climax with a strange revelation. Keeley had had a Remington 9mm round taken from the laboratory storeroom and fired, and when he compared the residue from that with the residues found at the Dando murder scene they did not match. Whether this was important - and Keeley insisted that it was not - scarcely mattered; it was utterly baffling. Mansfield by now was laughing openly and it was fortunate for the prosecution that this chaotic exchange took place late on a Friday afternoon, so that when Pownall and Keeley resumed the examination after the weekend break some of the damage could be repaired. Reluctant though he was to endorse the particle as a firm link between George and the murder, the scientist was even more reluctant to accept that it had arrived on the coat, as the defence suggested, by innocent contamination. It was most unlikely, he thought, that it had got on to the coat either during the search or at the Amelia Street studio. His views were endorsed by a second prosecution expert in this field, Graham Renshaw, who suggested at one stage that the chances of such contamination were akin to those of winning the lottery. Although on reflection he shortened those odds somewhat, he remained of the view that the probability was low.

And for the defence:

The other significant defence testimony came from John Lloyd, the expert who had been recruited by the defence to review the evidence relating to the particle. Introduced by Mansfield as a man with exceptional qualifications, long experience and an international reputation in his field, Lloyd proved to be a small, elderly man with wild hair, an avuncular manner and a monocle. A single exchange sums up what he had to say.

MANSFIELD: From a forensic science point of view, what significance do you attach to the finding of one particle in this case?

LLOYD: There could scarcely be less residue at all. The presence of a single particle does raise serious doubts as to where it may have come from. It might have been something which is just a casual contamination. Some laboratories have in fact not reported findings as significant when so little residue is found. It should be said that in this case, this is the first occasion when it has been suggested that a single particle could be a relic of an event which has occurred a year ago. It is quite a unique suggestion.

These observations were never seriously challenged, let alone disproved, and they gave some explanation for Robin Keeley's earlier discomfort. The prosecution, Lloyd was saying, was taking evidence that some experts would simply discard and construing its meaning and significance in ways that had never previously been attempted. To claim that it helped to prove George might have shot Dando was 'incredible', he insisted, and quite unsupported by scientific experience or knowledge. On balance, in fact, Lloyd believed it was more likely that the particle arrived on the coat by innocent contamination than that it came from the shot that killed Dando and remained on the coat - even in the pocket - for a whole year. The following morning Mansfield declared: 'That is the case for the defence.'
 

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  • #914
The other thing worth noting is that a second particle was later found on the back of George’s coat. Typically, such particles won’t remain on the outside of clothing for more than around 10 hours - but the coat wasn’t seized until 11 months after the murder, so how on earth did it get there? Probably the same way the first particle did - contamination.


Further weight is given to this theory by the fact that, after a review, it was revealed that “104 boxes of possessions and papers removed from George's home, all had to be discounted because it was discovered that they had been kept close to an open cage containing firearms.”

 
  • #915
The timeline leaves no time for attempted rape and there is no evidence such an attempt happened.


There was very minuscule amount of gun residue found in the pocket of the coat that was handled before getting tested (long time after Jill's murder) by multiple people, that were also handling guns as a part of their job. I think we can ignore this "evidence" safely.
Who do you believe killed Jill and why?
 
  • #916

This is a good piece that addresses the gunshot residue issue.
 
  • #917
I seriously doubt a assassin would were a distinctive tie that he had previously been photographed in?

The killer wasn’t professional, just lucky. If the ambulance crew hadn’t messed up the crime scene, we might have had a better outcome against him.

The photo of George in camo gear and mask holding an identical gun, plus his attempts to set up an alibi is damning imo.
 
  • #918
I seriously doubt a assassin would were a distinctive tie that he had previously been photographed in?

In a foreign country where he doesn't know the language like a native and had an accent that would stand out, in a place he would be easily spotted, with no get away car or escape route, where he carried out the killing outside on the doorstep instead of pushing her inside the house where no one could see, using the gun he did which could have easily not worked - there are too many things that make this theory not very plausible imo. And doing such an assassination to send a message of some sort is pointless if there is no message.
 
  • #919
The photo of George in camo gear and mask holding an identical gun,
Let's get something straight: he cannot hold an identical gun when we do not know what exact gun was used to kill Jill. The gun he held was of a type that might be converted into such weapon, but we have no idea if it was identical.
 

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