GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #17

[Robin Hood]

The more I hear of images the more I'm thinking the camera he had/was using to take snow pics is involved. A memory card is easy to hide, I think it's there somewhere, hidden away. Maybe that's what he was doing with the missing time, taking pics.

 

[otto]

The more I hear of images the more I'm thinking the camera he had/was using to take snow pics is involved. A memory card is easy to hide, I think it's there somewhere, hidden away. Maybe that's what he was doing with the missing time, taking pics.

It was said that there was a photo of a blond woman in jeans and a pink t-shirt like Joanna was wearing. I read that a few times trying to figure out what it meant ... whether it was a look-alike photo or whether it was her, and if it was her, was she turned away from the camera? I think you may be on to something. I'll see if I can find the quote. I guess it is a lookalike, not actual photos of her. There were photos of other women in a car. Still, maybe he duplicated some of the images with his camera and then destroyed the memory card after his DNA was taken.

"The Dutch engineer also stored images on his computer of a Joanna Yeates look-alike wearing a similar pink t-shirt to the one she had on the night she was killed.

In one of the photographs a girl, with the same short blonde hairstyle as the 25-year-old landscape architect, was laid on her back with her top raised up exposing her right breast.

...

Other images found on Tabak’s home and work computers included a series in which-semi naked women lay bound and gagged in the boot of a car. "

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...fetish-after-watching-violent-🤬🤬🤬🤬-films.html

 

[veggiefan]

Back to VT - Holland is renowned for its so I'm guessing his taste for it started way back.

I think that's a bit unfair on the Dutch. According to http://internet-filter-review.toptenreviews.com/internet-🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬-statistics.html the expenditure per capita on is far less in the Netherlands than in countries such as Italy, the UK, Canada and the USA. The really big users appear to be Finland, Australia, Japan and (above all) South Korea.

 

[Clio]

BBC Radio 4 interview with CJ from earlier today

Mr Jefferies received damages payments from eight newspapers who brandished him a "freak" and "a peeping tom" and raised concerns that changes in the rules governing "no-win, no-fee" cases could have prevented him from pursuing the cases.

"There is absolutely no question that I wouldn't have been able to take the action I did," without no-win, no-fee rules, he said

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9629000/9629799.stm

Written article covering mostly the same thing

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-15551619

 

[kINGFISHER]

I guess my point is, it's not that easy to pick up unless you come into direct contact with someone's bodily fluid ie. blood, semen, saliva, or a hair or bit of skin.

Tests showed that both Miss Yeates's and Tabak's DNA were recovered from her body and that it was statistically one million times more likely it was their DNA than others.
Tabak's and another unidentified person's DNA was also found on Miss Yeates's jeans - behind her knees - which would have been consistent with Tabak carrying her body, the court was told.
Ms Lennen said the statistical interpretation of the results from Miss Yeates's jeans showed that it was 1,100 times more likely that the DNA was from Vincent Tabak and another person, rather than two unknown people unrelated to the defendant.

Lots of unanswered questions imo

 

[kINGFISHER]

BBC Radio 4 interview with CJ from earlier today

Mr Jefferies received damages payments from eight newspapers who brandished him a "freak" and "a peeping tom" and raised concerns that changes in the rules governing "no-win, no-fee" cases could have prevented him from pursuing the cases.

"There is absolutely no question that I wouldn't have been able to take the action I did," without no-win, no-fee rules, he said

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9629000/9629799.stm

Written article covering mosstly the same thing


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-15551619

Some dithering when questioned about the Police and he got legal aid , didn't realise. that.

 

[bijoux]

He has been sentenced to 20 years before any possibility of parole. That's a long time.

Not long enough in my view but lucky for him; in Canada our geriatric prisoners are beginning to complain they 'live in fear' of their younger fellow inmates.

Then again for the next 20 years he'd better look over his shoulder. If word gets out, he could meet the same demise as Mitchell Harrison.

 

[whiterum]

Ironically the sock was not Jo’s. It *belonged to boyfriend Greg Reardon, 28, who was away visiting relatives when she was attacked.
She had borrowed a pair of Greg’s thick socks to keep out the cold.
And a senior police scenes-of-crimes *officer said: “The removal of a trophy from a victim is often the hallmark of a serial offender.
“The item usually has no obvious *value except to the individual in his *fantasy world.
“The discovery that the trophy didn’t *belong to the victim but to her boyfriend would be devastating to the offender.’’

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/posts/view/218521/Tabak-kept-Jo-s-sock-as-sick-trophy/


Maybe this is old news but I didn't know the socks were GR's. Not much of a trophy then for the murdering pervert!

 

[Clio]

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/posts/view/218521/Tabak-kept-Jo-s-sock-as-sick-trophy/


Maybe this is old news but I didn't know the socks were GR's. Not much of a trophy then for the murdering pervert!

I remember that from when GR gave his testimony. I thought at the time it could possibly explain why one came off whilst moving JYs body. But that was when I was trying to keep an open mind.......

 

[Clio]

Article from the Guardians Steven Morris on the experience of tweeting from court during the trial.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/n...ted?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

 

[goldielox]

Holland reknowned for ? That's news to me. Prostitution is not against the law, but I think that's quite different from reknowned for . I would have considered a place like Bangkok or even the US to be more "reknowned for ".

Yes it is. The Dutch stuff is very sought after by "connoiseurs" in it. I've no idea if its more "renowned" than what the US or the likes of Bangkok churns out, but Dutch p orn is renowned.

 

[goldielox]

I think that's a bit unfair on the Dutch. According to http://internet-filter-review.toptenreviews.com/internet-🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬-statistics.html the expenditure per capita on is far less in the Netherlands than in countries such as Italy, the UK, Canada and the USA. The really big users appear to be Finland, Australia, Japan and (above all) South Korea.

The Dutch are known to produce "good" hardcore p orn. Maybe in more recent years its faded out of favour compared to other countries, I don't know, but I do know it was highly sought after.

 

[otto]

The Dutch are known to produce "good" hardcore p orn. Maybe in more recent years its faded out of favour compared to other countries, I don't know, but I do know it was highly sought after.

The stats posted by veggiefan don't support that. The Netherlands does not seem to be a major producer.

 

[weeeva]

I think there's been a fair bit of research, but the results are often contradictory and inconclusive.

From the little I've read, I think there is some evidence that sex offenders often display a type of behaviour that could be classed within the autism spectrum - a lack of empathy with their victims, and a tendency to "excuse" their own behaviour with claims that their victim didn't mind or encouraged them (remember "she invited me in"?).

I'm quite persuaded by this argument, as it fits with the "loner" image of the sex offender that we often read about, and also goes some way to explaining why sex offenders are mainly men (autism is much more prevalent in males than females). However, I think it's best to avoid simplistic arguments in these matters - apart from anything else, everyone differs.

The thing is, Tabak seems to have been showing symptoms of being "different" as a child, if his neighbours are to be believed.
Robert Black has recently been convicted of his 4Th murder of a little girl, going back 30 odd years. He has always denied everything.
His warped interest in sex started when he was still a child himself. He actually experimented on himself, before moving on to other children.
The things he did to himself are far too explicit to repeat on here.
Black had a very difficult childhood, which I imagine would contribute to how he turned out to be.
It is worrying to know that this type of behaviour can manifest itself at a very young age, when a child should be too young to know about such things.
Some may hate the adult but how can we hate the child?
You are right there will be no simplistic answer to such questions.

 

[weeeva]

Lol! Sorry.

I think he was probably twisted before he got himself on the internet (or met TM) - the birth of the internet has just made this stuff more accessable hasn't it. Why or how someone realises they have a certain kink though is anyone's guess.

I recall an accountant who used to frequent a forum years ago. He was in to feet- to be more specific he was in to smelly feet. He used to ask people to post him their well worn slippers and other footwear so he could sniff (and got knows what else) them. If he was still around I'd ask him how he got in to that. Another one - he liked dressing up as a maid. He used to ask for tips on how to be the perfect "lady's maid". He wanted to pop round to clean people's houses dressed like that too.

Back to VT - Holland is renowned for its so I'm guessing his taste for it started way back. Obviously "normal" didn't do it for him hence he's probably gone looking (and obviously found) the more extreme stuff and developed a taste for it. And we know what that escalated to.

Some probably have a reason in their background as to why they go a certain way sexually. And some people probably don't - they're just wired to be perverse...same as I believe some people are just wired to be bad and/or evil.

The mind does boggle. I remember seeing something on TV years ago where a man married his horse. Poor horse I wonder if they are still together or divorced.
The thing about people being wired up to be perverse or just evil, means they don't have free will.
So if they don't have free will it means it is not their fault and shouldn't be judged or hated by us. It just gets too complex.
It would be interesting to know what kind of life Tabak had when he was growing up.

 

[otto]

The thing is, Tabak seems to have been showing symptoms of being "different" as a child, if his neighbours are to be believed.
Robert Black has recently been convicted of his 4Th murder of a little girl, going back 30 odd years. He has always denied everything.
His warped interest in sex started when he was still a child himself. He actually experimented on himself, before moving on to other children.
The things he did to himself are far too explicit to repeat on here.
Black had a very difficult childhood, which I imagine would contribute to how he turned out to be.
It is worrying to know that this type of behaviour can manifest itself at a very young age, when a child should be too young to know about such things.
Some may hate the adult but how can we hate the child?
You are right there will be no simplistic answer to such questions.

I get the impression that VT was a bit of a loner (per the neighbour) as a child. We know that he is very bright. We have also heard (not sure if this is true) that his mother was an agoraphobic. His next older sibling is 10 years older and the four older children are grouped together in age. I don't consider it all that unusual for an exceptionally bright child to be more introverted or to spend time doing activities at home rather than playing with other children. The parents are responsible for arranging social activities and ensuring normal socialization at an early age. It's possible that with the four older siblings VT fell between the cracks, or that he was spoiled, indulged and babied for too long.

I see parallels with the Scott Peterson case. We had the same situation where Scott was a bit of a loner and didn't socialize with other children. His mother took him to work with her and I got the impression that he was kind of ignored, but managed, as a child; that he was babied, indulged. We heard that he didn't need to learn how to walk because his siblings carried him everywhere.

There's a connection that I'm seeing between parents that, for whatever reason, don't engage with a child in the very early stages of development. We saw it in video footage of Casey Anthony with her daughter. Cayley was trying to interact with her mother, but Casey was miles away. Eventually, it seemed like Cayley was miles away too. It's my understanding that when a young child attempts to engage with a parent and is contiually ignored, they learn to suppress not only their natural desire to interact emotionally with others, but they learn to suppress the disappointment they feel when their efforts are ignored or neglected. This is where these children begin to cut off their own emotional responses ... where they first stop feeling. As adults, they lack empathy for others, but still feel sorry for themselves.

Given what I understand of the premeditated attack on Joanna, I don't believe that VT had any empathy for her. He must have sociopathic tendencies to have carried out such a calculated attack on someone he didn't know.

 

[weeeva]

The point that I have had the most difficulty with processing is the fact that VT went to Joanna's flat that night having made the decisions to murder her. We know this to be true. He went there to attack his neighbour and it appears to me that he knew she was alone. He had to have known that if he left her alive, he would immediately be arrested, so before he went there he knew perfectly well that he was going to commit murder. That means that everything he did leading up to the murder would have been cold and calculating - all 43 injuries that occurred in a period of about 30 minutes. He also appears to have made a calculated decision that he could get away with it. No one in his right mind would spend 11 years completing three university degrees only to then make a decision which he thought could land him in jail for the remainder of his life. He fully expected that he could commit murder and get away with it. It just blows my mind ... the arrogance and calculating coldness.

It's definitely mind blowing. We just couldn't fathom that someone who seemed so decent and shy, could behave the way he did. I don't believe that he went to Jo with the intention of making a pass. He was too far gone by then, he must have known that whatever he was going to do, Jo must not live to tell the tale and making a silly pass would not satisfy his needs.
It is still hard to believe that he could do this so close to home and run such a risk of being caught.
I think I mentioned before that the urge he had to fulfill his fantasy must have been stronger than the very will to survive. Only when the deed was done did he go into survival mode.

 

[weeeva]

I get the impression that VT was a bit of a loner (per the neighbour) as a child. We know that he is very bright. We have also heard (not sure if this is true) that his mother was an agoraphobic. His next older sibling is 10 years older and the four older children are grouped together in age. I don't consider it all that unusual for an exceptionally bright child to be more introverted or to spend time doing activities at home rather than playing with other children. The parents are responsible for arranging social activities and ensuring normal socialization at an early age. It's possible that with the four older siblings VT fell between the cracks, or that he was spoiled, indulged and babied for too long.

I see parallels with the Scott Peterson case. We had the same situation where Scott was a bit of a loner and didn't socialize with other children. His mother took him to work with her and I got the impression that he was kind of ignored, but managed, as a child; that he was babied, indulged. We heard that he didn't need to learn how to walk because his siblings carried him everywhere.

There's a connection that I'm seeing between parents that, for whatever reason, don't engage with a child in the very early stages of development. We saw it in video footage of Casey Anthony with her daughter. Cayley was trying to interact with her mother, but Casey was miles away. Eventually, it seemed like Cayley was miles away too. It's my understanding that when a young child attempts to engage with a parent and is contiually ignored, they learn to suppress not only their natural desire to interact emotionally with others, but they learn to suppress the disappointment they feel when their efforts are ignored or neglected. This is where these children begin to cut off their own emotional responses ... where they first stop feeling. As adults, they lack empathy for others, but still feel sorry for themselves.Given what I understand of the premeditated attack on Joanna, I don't believe that VT had any empathy for her. He must have sociopathic tendencies to have carried out such a calculated attack on someone he didn't know.

Your post made my stomach churn. The thought of a child being ignored or pushed away by it's mother is just so sad, and of course would have dyer consequences for the child.
I remember reading that a baby can actually become depressed.
I am really quite upset by this topic and feeling depressed myself.
Think I will take a break for a while.
Sorry for being such a misery guts.

 

[otto]

It's definitely mind blowing. We just couldn't fathom that someone who seemed so decent and shy, could behave the way he did. I don't believe that he went to Jo with the intention of making a pass. He was too far gone by then, he must have known that whatever he was going to do, Jo must not live to tell the tale and making a silly pass would not satisfy his needs.
It is still hard to believe that he could do this so close to home and run such a risk of being caught.
I think I mentioned before that the urge he had to fulfill his fantasy must have been stronger than the very will to survive. Only when the deed was done did he go into survival mode.

I wrote a detailed response and then it disappeared into one of those virtual black holes.

But ... the gist of it ... is that I completely agree ... with the added point that he had to have conceived of the possibility of murder even before he approached Joanna.

 

[otto]

Your post made my stomach churn. The thought of a child being ignored or pushed away by it's mother is just so sad, and of course would have dyer consequences for the child.
I remember reading that a baby can actually become depressed.
I am really quite upset by this topic and feeling depressed myself.
Think I will take a break for a while.
Sorry for being such a misery guts.

I think neglected infants and toddlers learn to cope, but they never thrive. So much of the personality is determined by the age of 6 that if a child is constantly managed, rather than engaged, there will be some serious and permanent emotional confusion, turmoil or damage.