UK UK- Joy Hewer, 50, Teacher/church volunteer, sexually assaulted & fatally stabbed in chest, apartment set on fire, Walthamstow, 17 Oct.1995 *REWARD*

[Rookie D]

Not sure why I thought the neighbours heard furniture being dragged in Joy's flat. Apologies for misdirecting the thread if the furniture being moved around hasn't been confirmed.

I think you're correct that the couple heard furniture being moved around in the flat upstairs, it's just that the flat above them wasn't Joy's. It was an empty flat.
However, the detective who speaks on the 1996 Crimewatch episode mentions a couple who were "moving furniture into one of the flats" and standing by the lifts talking to one of the original persons of interest in the case; the young man in his twenties.

The couple who were moving furniture into one of the flats and who were seen by the lifts, were moving their furniture into the empty flat directly below Joy's flat. The couple who were then awoken by the sound of furniture being moved around upstairs were the new occupants of the previously empty flat.

The problem is that soon after the noise coming from the flat upstairs stopped, a man was heard running down the communal stairwell.
it is likely that this heavy footed man was the same very tall man who was then seen running out the front of the flats and who was nearly hit by a car travelling east along Forest road.

But I don't believe theses incidents are connected.

The woman who heard the man running down the stairs naturally assumed it was connected with the sounds from the flat upstairs having just stopped. But this may be a cause for confusion as there's no evidence to support the idea that the couple who heard banging had heard Joy being murdered.

The issue is that the estimated T.O.D has been largely based on the timing that coincides with the banging and moving of furniture having stopped. However, the moving of furniture and/or banging may have actually concealed the sound of Joy being murdered in the flat above the flat in which the furniture was being moved.

 

[dotr]

FWIW, Info regarding a couple hearing loud noises came from a site that may not be permitted to post here, by
'The true Crime Enthusiast.' 2016. "Who killed Joy Hewer?

 

[Rookie D]

FWIW, Info regarding a couple hearing loud noises came from a site that may not be permitted to post here, by
'The true Crime Enthusiast.' 2016. "Who killed Joy Hewer?

The data regarding the couple hearing loud noises was originally mentioned in the 1996 broadcast of Crimewatch, which was the original source material available to the public, and predates any subsequent podcast or chat forum since 1996.

 

[Deadbeat]

I find it interesting that Joy’s sister believes CCTV man might have been entering to assist the actual killer. She also says she is doing her own investigation, clearly has access to mountains of paperwork and presumably information we’re not aware of.

So this must be based on SOMETHING. I just don’t think the timeline we have adds up, if CCTV man enters at 22:30 and the killer is ALREADY there and has committed the murder?

 

[Rookie D]

I find it interesting that Joy’s sister believes CCTV man might have been entering to assist the actual killer. She also says she is doing her own investigation, clearly has access to mountains of paperwork and presumably information we’re not aware of.

So this must be based on SOMETHING. I just don’t think the timeline we have adds up, if CCTV man enters at 22:30 and the killer is ALREADY there and has committed the murder?

I think there's a particular reason why Penny believes that the man caught on CCTV went there to assist the killer, but I agree that it seems unlikely considering the established timeline.

It may be possible that the murder occurred anytime AFTER Joy got off the phone circa 9.45pm, meaning that the killer arrived earlier than the police believe. However, this seems unlikely and IMO the man caught on CCTV was the killer.

There was IMHO a 2nd man who DID go to the flats to assist the killer, but I think that Penny has it the wrong way around and that the CCTV man is the real killer and the man who made the 999 call is his hired help to start the fires and destroy the evidence.

 

[tes1984]

I think there's a particular reason why Penny believes that the man caught on CCTV went there to assist the killer, but I agree that it seems unlikely considering the established timeline.

It may be possible that the murder occurred anytime AFTER Joy got off the phone circa 9.45pm, meaning that the killer arrived earlier than the police believe. However, this seems unlikely and IMO the man caught on CCTV was the killer.

There was IMHO a 2nd man who DID go to the flats to assist the killer, but I think that Penny has it the wrong way around and that the CCTV man is the real killer and the man who made the 999 call is his hired help to start the fires and destroy the evidence.

Two perps is a possibility, particularly if one is a devoted follower type. It's a big risk for a murderer rapist to confide in anyone though.

If there is a clean up man/accomplice, then how does he know to go to Joy's flat? A quick phone call to a local man, or a pre-arranged meeting time?

If it's hired help, then he doesn't do a very good job. He fails to destroy the crime scene. Perhaps he leaves the coffee cups because he mistakenly thinks the fires will incinerate them.

 

[Rookie D]

Two perps is a possibility, particularly if one is a devoted follower type. It's a big risk for a murderer rapist to confide in anyone though.

If there is a clean up man/accomplice, then how does he know to go to Joy's flat? A quick phone call to a local man, or a pre-arranged meeting time?

If it's hired help, then he doesn't do a very good job. He fails to destroy the crime scene. Perhaps he leaves the coffee cups because he mistakenly thinks the fires will incinerate them.

Great post

IMO, I would wager that the accomplice who started the fires, was perhaps more familiar with the building than people realise.

He may have also been in the building prior to the killer arriving at 22.31pm.

I would also suggest that this said accomplice, was the guy who was heard running down the stairwell, is the same guy who was then seen running out the building, and was also possibly the same guy who then makes the 999 phone call.

The man who made the 999 call, first and foremost knew the name of the building, and he was also the only person seemingly aware of the fire in the flat.

I believe that the mistake the man who made the 999 call made was that he inadvertently states the name of the building at the very top of the call. He then realises and tries desperately to backtrack by trying to make out he doesn't know any of the street names. But he's already said "St David's Court" and he can't openly retract what he's said.

Without the man caught on CCTV, he would IMO be the prime suspect for the murder. However, the man on CCTV changes the dynamic and his presence needs to be explained.

Based on the evidence I believe there's a valid probability that there were 2 men involved.


I agree that whoever started the fires clearly did a botched job.

However, perhaps the man who started the fires made an effort to ensure that the entire building didn't go up in flames. At some point, the man who started the fires must have considered what would happen if nobody was alerted about the fires. It is on this basis that I feel that the fire starter may have developed an element of guilt and realised he had made a mistake. This might then explain why he may have fled the flat, run down the stairs, run out into the road and then hurriedly called 999 for help. If the fires had been started but the man's developed a sudden case of morality, then he may have been unable to stop the fires physically and thus needed to get to a public phone as quick as possible.

That's conjecture on my part of course, but I feel it supports the known evidence.

 

[Deadbeat]

The thing with the two people theory is, it would likely mean this was a premeditated murder, wouldn’t it? As, more planning would need to have gone into it. What do you think the motive could have been though?

 

[Rookie D]

The thing with the two people theory is, it would likely mean this was a premeditated murder, wouldn’t it? As, more planning would need to have gone into it. What do you think the motive could have been though?

I believe that there's a high probability that the murder was premeditated.

I say this because Joy lived in a 6th floor flat that had an internal chain mechanism, a spyhole so that the occupant could observe who was standing outside the door, and the building itself had an intercom system that required someone already inside the building to permit someone outside (without a key) to be able to gain access to the flats.

Based on this, it seems almost certain that at the very least; Joy was expecting someone to come to her flat that night. And because the man who came over was expected, she had no apparent need to stop him accessing her flat.

There were also no signs of a struggle or of forced entry. However I do concede that this doesn't necessarily mean that the killer didn't trick Joy by convincing her to open the door, and then suddenly force his way into her flat.

So if we consider the more likely scenario that Joy was expecting the man who would then go on to kill her, we can then surmise that the man either did or didn't intend to kill her.


And yet, no murder weapon or weapons were found in the flat. This would be unusual for a murder of this kind because if the man hadn't intended to stab Joy and kill her, then a killer would more often than not just drop the knife.

But when we realise that Joy was stabbed multiple times and sustained various other injuries, and yet the murder weapon was taken away by the killer, the murder then takes the form of someone who had planned to kill Joy before he even walked into the flat.

But again, this may not be the case. However, based on the fact that the killer took the murder weapon with him, would also imply that he had also brought the weapon with him to the flat before he arrived. And this eludes to a pre-meditated murder IMO.

But what about the motive?

Well the obvious answer for me would be that it may have been someone connected with the faux church; specifically the London Healing Mission, that had stopped being recognised by the mainstream church and whose former pastor had previously been de-clothed for alleged sexual offenses.

if it was someone from the London Healing Mission, then Joy may have been silenced for something she knew, or it may have been someone who had become obsessed with Joy, and perhaps Joy being the kind person she was, had taken the man under her wing as a form of support to help him with his own personal demons so to speak.

But something about that angle just doesn't sit right with me. Something is off and it feels very much like a crucial piece of the jigsaw is missing somehow.

Although I think it could be said that if the killer wasn't someone involved in the London Healing Mission, that it is highly likely that it was someone who Joy trusted enough to let him into her flat at a relatively late hour, and in her nightdress of course.

There are only a very small pool of individuals who fit within that criteria.

Ultimately, I still feel that this particular case is one that can and will be solved over time. Call it a hunch.

 

[tes1984]

The thing with the two people theory is, it would likely mean this was a premeditated murder, wouldn’t it? As, more planning would need to have gone into it. What do you think the motive could have been though?

Perhaps a premeditated meeting that turned into rape and then murder?

I favour this scenario, involving one perp, not two. I might be completely wrong though.

 

[Deadbeat]

I believe that there's a high probability that the murder was premeditated.

I say this because Joy lived in a 6th floor flat that had an internal chain mechanism, a spyhole so that the occupant could observe who was standing outside the door, and the building itself had an intercom system that required someone already inside the building to permit someone outside (without a key) to be able to gain access to the flats.

Based on this, it seems almost certain that at the very least; Joy was expecting someone to come to her flat that night. And because the man who came over was expected, she had no apparent need to stop him accessing her flat.

There were also no signs of a struggle or of forced entry. However I do concede that this doesn't necessarily mean that the killer didn't trick Joy by convincing her to open the door, and then suddenly force his way into her flat.

So if we consider the more likely scenario that Joy was expecting the man who would then go on to kill her, we can then surmise that the man either did or didn't intend to kill her.


And yet, no murder weapon or weapons were found in the flat. This would be unusual for a murder of this kind because if the man hadn't intended to stab Joy and kill her, then a killer would more often than not just drop the knife.

But when we realise that Joy was stabbed multiple times and sustained various other injuries, and yet the murder weapon was taken away by the killer, the murder then takes the form of someone who had planned to kill Joy before he even walked into the flat.

But again, this may not be the case. However, based on the fact that the killer took the murder weapon with him, would also imply that he had also brought the weapon with him to the flat before he arrived. And this eludes to a pre-meditated murder IMO.

But what about the motive?

Well the obvious answer for me would be that it may have been someone connected with the faux church; specifically the London Healing Mission, that had stopped being recognised by the mainstream church and whose former pastor had previously been de-clothed for alleged sexual offenses.

if it was someone from the London Healing Mission, then Joy may have been silenced for something she knew, or it may have been someone who had become obsessed with Joy, and perhaps Joy being the kind person she was, had taken the man under her wing as a form of support to help him with his own personal demons so to speak.

But something about that angle just doesn't sit right with me. Something is off and it feels very much like a crucial piece of the jigsaw is missing somehow.

Although I think it could be said that if the killer wasn't someone involved in the London Healing Mission, that it is highly likely that it was someone who Joy trusted enough to let him into her flat at a relatively late hour, and in her nightdress of course.

There are only a very small pool of individuals who fit within that criteria.

Ultimately, I still feel that this particular case is one that can and will be solved over time. Call it a hunch.

This is a very interesting theory indeed and you make some really good points. I was always of the opinion that this was the work of one man, who Joy knew but had turned up unannounced that night (due to her being in her nightdress and ready for bed, I assumed she probably WASN’T expecting a visitor?). There is also the question of the sexual assault. I just think if this was premeditated murder, the perp would likely stick to the plan, unless he did this to throw detectives off. Your post has definitely got me thinking that something deeper could be going on here.

 

[dotr]

What may have started as a robbery or a request for a loan, could have turned into more if the perp misinterpreted JH's sleepwear.
Got carried away, attacked instead of stole and in a state of panic and even shame, he lights a couple of fires and runs away.
He could have had a buddy of sorts waiting around the corner, or acted alone, with a mother waiting for him at home, speculation.

 

[tes1984]

At what stage in events are the coffees made and drunk?

I'm presuming it was one cup for Joy and one for the killer?

 

[Deadbeat]

At what stage in events are the coffees made and drunk?

I'm presuming it was one cup for Joy and one for the killer?

To add to that, are we also assuming it was from the coffee cup they retrieved DNA?
I’m surprised the DNA wasn’t damaged by either, fire, smoke or water used to put the fire out.

 

[Rookie D]

At what stage in events are the coffees made and drunk?

I'm presuming it was one cup for Joy and one for the killer?

One would assume that it was 1 for Joy and one for her killer. However, it may also have been that Joy wasn't drinking and so there may have been 2 cups for multiple visitors.

It would have taken around 5 minutes to boil a kettle and make the coffee, and a further 10 minutes or so for it to be cool enough to consume. So that would suggest that the killer spent at least 15 minutes in the flat with Joy.

If that was the killer who was seen on CCTV at 22.31pm, then by the time he's got up to her flat, gone in, sat down, had small talk in which asks "do you want a drink?" and then Joy has gone to the kitchen to make it while the killer stays in the living room.
(note that there were was no evidence to support the fires were later started to destroy evidence traces from the kitchen, suggesting that the killer never went into the kitchen at all)
Joy then returns with the coffee and they sit and chat. The killer presumably then drinks his coffee around 22.50pm, because from the point of buzzing at the main door downstairs, to having finished his coffee would have taken at least 15 to 20 minutes.

But of course, it all depends on how long the killer and Joy were chatting for at the table. What's interesting is that if you look closely at some of the footage of the flat after the fire, there appears to be only 1 cup visible, and furthermore, there appears to be IMO some drawings and/or photofit style faces/drawings placed on the table. (also, where's the other cup, and has it been removed for some reason?)

So if that's the case, would the drawings on the table have been a topic of discussion between Joy and her killer?

And if so, then what kind of visitor would come around to potentially discuss those kinds of drawings, and who could be trusted enough for Joy to have let him in to do so?

We know that there had been some very dodgy dealings at the London Healing Mission, and I wonder if they perhaps formed part of some ongoing investigation in some way?

For me, there is a fairly obvious option for the type of person who may have been trusted and who had visited Joy late at night to potentially discuss photofits and drawings at the table over a coffee, but I'd prefer for y'all to read between the lines of my hypothesis as opposed to me openly saying it.

It's not my favoured hypothesis, but I wouldn't rule it out entirely.

 

[Rookie D]

To add to that, are we also assuming it was from the coffee cup they retrieved DNA?
I’m surprised the DNA wasn’t damaged by either, fire, smoke or water used to put the fire out.

I'm also surprised that an organic plant, a fair amount of paperwork, clothes, and various other items didn't go up in flames.

If you took an exact replica mock version of Joy's relatively small flat and then started 2 fires in 2 different rooms, and then walked out and left it, it would have taken just over 5 minutes or so for the fires to have completely engulfed the entire flat. And that's without any accelerant.
So if we treble the time to around 15 minutes, it would then have undoubtedly incinerated everything in the flat, because the sheer pressure and heat combined would have caused automatic combustion of everything in the flat; that is even without the need for the actual flames to touch anything.

And yet the video footage taken after the fire doesn't support that.

So we know by the science that if the fire service entered the flat some time around 23.30pm (at the very EARLIEST based on the initial 999 call at 23.18pm that lasted just over 2 and a half minutes, a response time of around 4 minutes and the need to ascend up to the 6th floor and secure lower floors first) then we know that the fire couldn't have been started much before 23.15pm, possibly 23.10pm at the very extreme end of the possible start time of the fire.

And so when we consider that the only man who appears to visibly see the flames and therefore know about the fire, then makes a 999 call at 23.18pm, then we know that the fire must have been started before 23.18pm.

And if the fire service burst into the flat no earlier than 23.30pm, and the fire hadn't completed incinerated everything that SHOULD have been destroyed by the fire, then we can be virtually certain that the fire couldn't have been raging for any longer than 15 minutes, because that's around triple the required time needed for a fire to do so.

And if the fire couldn't have been started before 23.15pm, then the man who makes the call sees the flames just a couple of minutes after the fire has started. This is because he would have needed to have parked his car, go out, and then gone into the phone box to make the 999 call.

That means he sees the fire no later than 23.17pm.

But when we add the tantalising clue that a heavy man was heard running down the stairwell, and then a black male well over 6ft tall was seen running from the building and was nearly hit by a passing motorist, then the timing of the fire being started at 23.15pm to a black male making a 999 call just 3 minutes later, ties in perfectly with the sequence above.

What we must realise is that times and descriptions given by witnesses can often be wrong and therefore unintentionally misleading to an investigation. On that basis, we must use the definitive parameters to construct the correct framework for the case.
In this case, we know the 999 call was made at 23.18pm, and so the fire had to have been started BEFORE 23.18pm
We also know that the man who made the call was a black male
And based on the science, we know that the fire couldn't have been started much before 23.15pm, because by the time the fire service entered that flat, the evidence simply doesn't support the idea that the fire was started before 23.00pm, because there's no way that a multiple fires in a flat could rage for 30 minutes, and yet most of the flat survives fire damage, including some items that would have been combustible under extreme heat and pressure.

So with all that in mind, it supports the theory that the man who made the 999 call was the man who started those fires.

But of course, if he wasn't, then how peculiar is it that nobody else from the flats called 999?

There were 3 other flats on Joy's floor and yet the first person to call 999 was a man driving past in his car outside.

Crucially, I don't believe for a moment that the man who made that call could actually see those flames. He just knew about the fire, and didn't want to be a mass murderer and so needed to alert emergency services so that other residents didn't die as well.

It also explains why he never came forward of course.


Interestingly, without that CCTV image of the white male entering the flat at 22.31pm, it would seem to me that the man who made the call was also the killer; as is emphasised and implied by the original 1996 broadcast. However, in the 2015 update broadcast, the man who was seen running out the building and who nearly got hit by the car is for some reason never mentioned; eluding to him having been ruled out.
However, it makes me wonder why the CCTV photo hadn't been mentioned earlier?

It would seem to me that the original investigative team were either unaware of the CCTV image, had it but chose to keep it quiet, or had it but didn't understand its relevance at the time of the 1996 broadcast.

It does seem rather odd; almost as though the CCTV image wasn't something the original investigative team wanted to pursue for whatever reason?

Of course, with the sudden emergence of the CCTV image made public in 2015, the idea that there were possibly 2 different men involved then gains some traction.

IMO the man on the CCTV image was the killer, but he left around 15 minutes before the fires were started, giving him time to get away and create an alibi. He then tells the other man to wait and start the fires, which the 2nd man does just before he is then heard running down the stairs, avoiding being hit by the car, and then making the 999 call.

The issue with that of course is; how did the 2nd man enter Joy's flat if the killer had already left?

Well it's likely that he was already in the flat with the killer, and they BOTH drank coffee.

Failing that, the 2nd man may have arrived after the killer had left, and if the flat door was open, he could have just walked in.

If the door was closed however, then the 2nd man needed to have had a key somehow.


Lots of variables but when we work from the basic facts first and then branch outwards, we can slowly build a picture of what may have occurred on that fateful night.

 

[tes1984]

I find it interesting that Joy’s sister believes CCTV man might have been entering to assist the actual killer. She also says she is doing her own investigation, clearly has access to mountains of paperwork and presumably information we’re not aware of.

So this must be based on SOMETHING. I just don’t think the timeline we have adds up, if CCTV man enters at 22:30 and the killer is ALREADY there and has committed the murder?

I'm not sure about Joy's sister having access to much information. She says they have no leads, and IIRC the Hewers complained that the police didn't keep them in the picture during the initial investigation. Perhaps lines of communication have improved since then.

 

[tes1984]

To add to that, are we also assuming it was from the coffee cup they retrieved DNA?
I’m surprised the DNA wasn’t damaged by either, fire, smoke or water used to put the fire out.

DNA could be from a coffee cup, but AFAIK the source has never been confirmed. The crime scene wasn't completely destroyed, so there are quite a few possibilities.

 

[dotr]

Although i am inclined to drink coffee at any time of day or night, from my experience, most people limit it at night time, especially before bedtime.
Wondering if Joy is the latter type who made an exception because of the visitor? speculation.

 

[Deadbeat]

I'm also surprised that an organic plant, a fair amount of paperwork, clothes, and various other items didn't go up in flames.

If you took an exact replica mock version of Joy's relatively small flat and then started 2 fires in 2 different rooms, and then walked out and left it, it would have taken just over 5 minutes or so for the fires to have completely engulfed the entire flat. And that's without any accelerant.
So if we treble the time to around 15 minutes, it would then have undoubtedly incinerated everything in the flat, because the sheer pressure and heat combined would have caused automatic combustion of everything in the flat; that is even without the need for the actual flames to touch anything.

And yet the video footage taken after the fire doesn't support that.

So we know by the science that if the fire service entered the flat some time around 23.30pm (at the very EARLIEST based on the initial 999 call at 23.18pm that lasted just over 2 and a half minutes, a response time of around 4 minutes and the need to ascend up to the 6th floor and secure lower floors first) then we know that the fire couldn't have been started much before 23.15pm, possibly 23.10pm at the very extreme end of the possible start time of the fire.

And so when we consider that the only man who appears to visibly see the flames and therefore know about the fire, then makes a 999 call at 23.18pm, then we know that the fire must have been started before 23.18pm.

And if the fire service burst into the flat no earlier than 23.30pm, and the fire hadn't completed incinerated everything that SHOULD have been destroyed by the fire, then we can be virtually certain that the fire couldn't have been raging for any longer than 15 minutes, because that's around triple the required time needed for a fire to do so.

According to a user on Reddit the fire was never raging and it was in fact "smouldering" according to the police press releases. Do you have a link to the video footage that shows the coffee cups on the table and the drawings? Thank