UK UK- Joy Hewer, 50, Teacher/church volunteer, sexually assaulted & fatally stabbed in chest, apartment set on fire, Walthamstow, 17 Oct.1995 *REWARD*

[Deadbeat]

This is an interesting mini doc on the case, uploaded to YouTube 4 months ago. I’m assuming this is also the full phone call used here? The call handler sounds like she’s getting quite stressed by his seeming lack of knowledge of any of the roads:

Perhaps even more interesting though, are the comments on this particular YouTube video. Some of which are apparently from Joy’s niece? She states:

* “The vicar of the church had a temper & a criminal record & I'd bet it was him. My mum Mary is joys cousin & she now has dementia & I'd love to have this solved. Joys sister penny Barnes is still looking for answers.”

* “The caretaker committed suicide not long after this but he has been ruled out by police.”

* (in answer to why CCTV didn’t capture man leaving) “Cctv was on a loop, there is dna evidence so hopefully they will be caught now. We agree re LHM snd possibilities around this”.


These comments of course could be made by someone trolling though, there’s no real proof the person using that particular YouTube account is who they say they are.

 

[Rookie D]

According to a user on Reddit the fire was never raging and it was in fact "smouldering" according to the police press releases. Do you have a link to the video footage that shows the coffee cups on the table and the drawings? Thank

I am not sure how to add links, as I am not that tech savvy.

However, the footage I am referring to can be seen on the 2015 Crimewatch update.

The footage formed part of the BBC's News room south east tv broadcast that was then used as part of the Crimewatch broadcast.

If you go to Youtube and search for the case under "Crimewatch," it will come up. The specific video has a picture of Michael Winner on it, as he featured as the first case.
However, if you forward to 27.05 and let it run for precisely 10 seconds to 27.15, it clearly shows that there's only one cup on the table. The cup is also facing at an angle that suggests that either Joy or her killer were (possibly) left handed.
There's also a circular white mark on the table that may suggest that another cup was there, but that it had been removed before the footage was taken; unlikely as that may seem.
Note that there's also a plant on the table, and a wooden guitar at the far end of the room.
There's also paperwork on the table, and if you look just to the left of the plant, it looks like there's an e-fit style drawing on the table.

If someone could explain to me how I can attach a link to a source I am referring to; so that I don't need to over explain, then that would be very much appreciated, haha!

 

[dotr]

I am not sure how to add links, as I am not that tech savvy.

However, the footage I am referring to can be seen on the 2015 Crimewatch update.

The footage formed part of the BBC's News room south east tv broadcast that was then used as part of the Crimewatch broadcast.

If you go to Youtube and search for the case under "Crimewatch," it will come up. The specific video has a picture of Michael Winner on it, as he featured as the first case.
However, if you forward to 27.05 and let it run for precisely 10 seconds to 27.15, it clearly shows that there's only one cup on the table. The cup is also facing at an angle that suggests that either Joy or her killer were (possibly) left handed.
There's also a circular white mark on the table that may suggest that another cup was there, but that it had been removed before the footage was taken; unlikely as that may seem.
Note that there's also a plant on the table, and a wooden guitar at the far end of the room.
There's also paperwork on the table, and if you look just to the left of the plant, it looks like there's an e-fit style drawing on the table.

If someone could explain to me how I can attach a link to a source I am referring to; so that I don't need to over explain, then that would be very much appreciated, haha!

@ 27:05

 

[Rookie D]

@ 27:05

That's the one dotr

Thank you so much for linking that! I didn't know how to link, so that's very much appreciated.


The ONE coffee cup, the white mark on the table, the paperwork on the table, the possible e-fit style drawing, the guitar, the plant etc...etc... all of these may be insignificant when looked at in isolation, but I feel that when combined they may provide us with important clues.

The fact that a plant was situated next to the sofa that had fire damage, but the organic plant survived, doesn't support 2 fires that were alleged to have raged for well over 30 minutes.

The 2 fires that were started were very localised and despite there being multiple items that should have be incinerated and/or acted as fuel, many of them have clearly remained unscathed.

I believe the evidence that the fire wasn't started much before 23.15pm is there right in front of us.

The devil as they say, is in the detail.

 

[tes1984]

I can't really make out the possible e-fit. Is it a bald man with large glasses??

Joy was described as being extremely tidy. It's hard to tell from the limited footage, but the flat looks pretty cluttered to me.

Could the killer have ransacked or re-arranged items? As far as the police know, he didn't take anything from the flat. They found Joy's credit cards and £6 cash in the property, but it is possible in theory that the killer took larger bank notes and left the smaller change.

I suspect the killer had his own knife, but It's also possible in theory that he used a knife from Joy's flat. She lived alone so would anyone know for sure exactly how many kitchen knives she had?

As for the coffee cups, the modern police say they were found in the flat, but don't specify where. I read something about them being found in the kitchen, but it seems at least one of them was in the living room.

If the cups were found in different rooms, then it means Joy probably didn't sit down for a coffee with her killer. It would be good to know exactly where the cups were found.

 

[Rookie D]

I can't really make out the possible e-fit. Is it a bald man with large glasses??

Joy was described as being extremely tidy. It's hard to tell from the limited footage, but the flat looks pretty cluttered to me.

Could the killer have ransacked or re-arranged items? As far as the police know, he didn't take anything from the flat. They found Joy's credit cards and £6 cash in the property, but it is possible in theory that the killer took larger bank notes and left the smaller change.

I suspect the killer had his own knife, but It's also possible in theory that he used a knife from Joy's flat. She lived alone so would anyone know for sure exactly how many kitchen knives she had?

As for the coffee cups, the modern police say they were found in the flat, but don't specify where. I read something about them being found in the kitchen, but it seems at least one of them was in the living room.

If the cups were found in different rooms, then it means Joy probably didn't sit down for a coffee with her killer. It would be good to know exactly where the cups were found.

Excellent post, now we're talking!

I think that what looks like an e-fit drawing, looks indeed like a non-Caucasian bald man with some facial hair. It looks like the drawing is part of a pad or reel of paper as shown by the very top portion of the pad that the face is drawn on.

IMO, it looks very much to me that someone has ransacked the room, but looking specifically for a particular paper document; perhaps an official document of some importance; an insurance policy, deeds for a property, or a birth certificate perhaps? I say this because there appears to be a fair amount of paperwork on and around the table, and unless Joy was an artist who drew portraits etc...then it seems very possible that the killer was looking for something very specific.

Perhaps that formed part of the reason why he went over to see her in the first place?

And perhaps the killer propositioned her to give him a particular document, that Joy then refused, and perhaps this was the motivation the killer needed to take her life?

Trying to think outside the box here, but I feel that my hypothesis has some traction, especially when one considers the state of the room in context with the idea that Joy's flat was usually pristine.

Was the killer's motive driven by something else, and the brutality of her murder simply a ruse to divert blame onto the London Healing Mission?

Curious indeed

 

[Konstantin]

Joy was described as being extremely tidy. It's hard to tell from the limited footage, but the flat looks pretty cluttered to me.

Maybe she tidied up when people visited normally, so visitors perceived her as being tidy, but had things out and not tidied away when she was there alone. I have a friend like that - she lives alone and her flat is always very tidy and spotless when I visit but she says she is pretty relaxed about it when she's just chilling on her own. She's houseproud for visitors.

I don't think it was a big flat, so that's why her clothes drier is out and clothes on it, there was probably no other space. At least some if not most of the mess will be from the firefighters getting in there and spraying whatever they spray over the fire to put it out.

How long was the killer even in there? It can't have been a very long time.

 

[RC80]

We have no idea when that footage was taken so for all we know it may just be stuff left on the table by a detective or investigator. E-fits etc would seem very strange items for Joy to have, let alone left in full sight, whilst if it related to her killer then they would surely of destroyed them.

I think the time expected for a fire to fully develop is being wildly overestimated also. From a smouldering state then it could take much longer for flames to develop especially if there is no accelerant. A lot of the damage looks to me like smoke damage and would explain why many items in the flat seemed unaffected (Plants, TV, Stool, Clothes).

Listening to the full call I don't get any hint of the race of the caller. Definitely got an East London twang and I would guess aged 25-50. Majority of the call is spent trying to work out exactly where they are which seems odd as I would of thought they could of traced where the call was made from the number of the phonebox. I guess back in the day it would have generally been quicker to go off the caller. He does say "flames coming out of one of the floors" though the evidence suggests this is unlikely to have been the case (Windows not broken and limited fire/flame damage in the flat). Maybe it was just poor terminology at the time. To me it sounds like someone trying to be helpful but not really knowing much about where they were and possibly not fully comfortable ringing emergency services. I think he gets the name of the block of flats and expects that to be enough for the call handler to work out where they are. He is then thrown when she starts asking further questions about the road he is on etc.

Considering the killer has ran down 6 floors (Possibly 12 flights of stairs) then the caller doesn't sound like he is breathless as you would expect of a killer and so I would rule him out after all. It has thrown me with the "flames coming out" but it could just be curtains alight or something similar. Interesting that he says he was driving by and saw the flames. I guess he would have seen them from a distance as opposed to when he was at the junction as surely it would have been a job to see 6 floors up.

Not sure on the relevance of how long it takes to drink a cup of coffee is but the whole process could easily take over half an hour. Waiting for kettle to boil, drink to cool down then chatting away. Joy doesn't strike me as someone who would kick someone out as she wanted to go to bed, she would stay and listen to them and try to offer support and compassion. I suspect it was this that sadly led to her death.

 

[Rookie D]

We have no idea when that footage was taken so for all we know it may just be stuff left on the table by a detective or investigator. E-fits etc would seem very strange items for Joy to have, let alone left in full sight, whilst if it related to her killer then they would surely of destroyed them.

I think the time expected for a fire to fully develop is being wildly overestimated also. From a smouldering state then it could take much longer for flames to develop especially if there is no accelerant. A lot of the damage looks to me like smoke damage and would explain why many items in the flat seemed unaffected (Plants, TV, Stool, Clothes).

Listening to the full call I don't get any hint of the race of the caller. Definitely got an East London twang and I would guess aged 25-50. Majority of the call is spent trying to work out exactly where they are which seems odd as I would of thought they could of traced where the call was made from the number of the phonebox. I guess back in the day it would have generally been quicker to go off the caller. He does say "flames coming out of one of the floors" though the evidence suggests this is unlikely to have been the case (Windows not broken and limited fire/flame damage in the flat). Maybe it was just poor terminology at the time. To me it sounds like someone trying to be helpful but not really knowing much about where they were and possibly not fully comfortable ringing emergency services. I think he gets the name of the block of flats and expects that to be enough for the call handler to work out where they are. He is then thrown when she starts asking further questions about the road he is on etc.

Considering the killer has ran down 6 floors (Possibly 12 flights of stairs) then the caller doesn't sound like he is breathless as you would expect of a killer and so I would rule him out after all. It has thrown me with the "flames coming out" but it could just be curtains alight or something similar. Interesting that he says he was driving by and saw the flames. I guess he would have seen them from a distance as opposed to when he was at the junction as surely it would have been a job to see 6 floors up.

Not sure on the relevance of how long it takes to drink a cup of coffee is but the whole process could easily take over half an hour. Waiting for kettle to boil, drink to cool down then chatting away. Joy doesn't strike me as someone who would kick someone out as she wanted to go to bed, she would stay and listen to them and try to offer support and compassion. I suspect it was this that sadly led to her death.

Great post.

I think the reference to flames coming out is likely to have been the man literally seeing flames, or some smoke escaping through. I find it hard to believe that the windows were open, as there would have been more than just 1 witness to the fire if smoke was bellowing out from an open window.

In terms of the time required for the fire, it also supports the idea that the windows were closed, because the oxygen coming from the open window would have surely acted as an accelerant to fuel the flames. That said, the flat was a relatively small space and so it wouldn't have taken long for the fire to take hold and spread.
The apparent lack of combustion of organic materials would also suggest that the air pressure didn't reach the level for combustion to occur. This then suggests that there must have been a window open somewhere in the flat and therefore runs in direct contrast to the idea that the windows had to all be closed.

The one point I would have to respectfully disagree with you on, concerns the ethnicity of the 999 caller. It is fairly evident that based on the overall tone of the caller's voice, it matches an individual with at least some percentage of Caribbean heritage. The man's voice has a bass quality that confirms he was either a black male, or a male with mixed heritage.

The only way that the man could have been a Caucasian individual, would be if he was deliberately putting on a voice to make him sound like a black male. This is not something I adhere to personally.

This vocal analysis of the 999 called clearly doesn't match the ethnicity of the man seen standing by the main doors at 22.31pm.

It's also interesting to note that the 999 caller mentions "Chingford" in the full unedited version of the call. This may suggest that even though he doesn't appear to know the roads around the flats in Walthamstow, he may have had a connection to Chingford. Otherwise, why mention it?

 

[tes1984]

I'm nowhere near knowledgeable enough to discuss the technicalities of the fire.

In terms of the phone caller, I also suspect he was a black or mixed race man of Caribbean heritage, but it's never been confirmed.

 

[GTB72]

Great post.

I think the reference to flames coming out is likely to have been the man literally seeing flames, or some smoke escaping through. I find it hard to believe that the windows were open, as there would have been more than just 1 witness to the fire if smoke was bellowing out from an open window.

In terms of the time required for the fire, it also supports the idea that the windows were closed, because the oxygen coming from the open window would have surely acted as an accelerant to fuel the flames. That said, the flat was a relatively small space and so it wouldn't have taken long for the fire to take hold and spread.
The apparent lack of combustion of organic materials would also suggest that the air pressure didn't reach the level for combustion to occur. This then suggests that there must have been a window open somewhere in the flat and therefore runs in direct contrast to the idea that the windows had to all be closed.

The one point I would have to respectfully disagree with you on, concerns the ethnicity of the 999 caller. It is fairly evident that based on the overall tone of the caller's voice, it matches an individual with at least some percentage of Caribbean heritage. The man's voice has a bass quality that confirms he was either a black male, or a male with mixed heritage.

The only way that the man could have been a Caucasian individual, would be if he was deliberately putting on a voice to make him sound like a black male. This is not something I adhere to personally.

This vocal analysis of the 999 called clearly doesn't match the ethnicity of the man seen standing by the main doors at 22.31pm.

It's also interesting to note that the 999 caller mentions "Chingford" in the full unedited version of the call. This may suggest that even though he doesn't appear to know the roads around the flats in Walthamstow, he may have had a connection to Chingford. Otherwise, why mention it?

Because the phone box he made the phone call from 2A Fulbourn Road runs towards Chingford. If you watch the Crime watch 1996 reconstruction it shows you inside and outside the phone box.

Edited by me to show screenshots from Crimewatch 1996

 

[GTB72]

Because the phone box he made the phone call from 2A Fulbourn Road runs towards Chingford. If you watch the Crime watch 1996 reconstruction it shows you inside and outside the phone box.

Edited by me to show screenshots from Crimewatch 1996

This is near 2A Fulbourne Road today. If you compare it to the Crimewatch 1996 reconstruction you can see the angled line on the white building even though it is dark.

 

[GTB72]

I'm nowhere near knowledgeable enough to discuss the technicalities of the fire.

In terms of the phone caller, I also suspect he was a black or mixed race man of Caribbean heritage, but it's never been confirmed.

BBM. I'm just not hearing this at all. To me it just sounds like an East End of London accent.
Imo.

P. S. Although that doesn't proclude the caller being black.

Edited by me.

 

[GTB72]

We have no idea when that footage was taken so for all we know it may just be stuff left on the table by a detective or investigator. E-fits etc would seem very strange items for Joy to have, let alone left in full sight, whilst if it related to her killer then they would surely of destroyed them.

I think the time expected for a fire to fully develop is being wildly overestimated also. From a smouldering state then it could take much longer for flames to develop especially if there is no accelerant. A lot of the damage looks to me like smoke damage and would explain why many items in the flat seemed unaffected (Plants, TV, Stool, Clothes).

Listening to the full call I don't get any hint of the race of the caller. Definitely got an East London twang and I would guess aged 25-50. Majority of the call is spent trying to work out exactly where they are which seems odd as I would of thought they could of traced where the call was made from the number of the phonebox. I guess back in the day it would have generally been quicker to go off the caller. He does say "flames coming out of one of the floors" though the evidence suggests this is unlikely to have been the case (Windows not broken and limited fire/flame damage in the flat). Maybe it was just poor terminology at the time. To me it sounds like someone trying to be helpful but not really knowing much about where they were and possibly not fully comfortable ringing emergency services. I think he gets the name of the block of flats and expects that to be enough for the call handler to work out where they are. He is then thrown when she starts asking further questions about the road he is on etc.

Considering the killer has ran down 6 floors (Possibly 12 flights of stairs) then the caller doesn't sound like he is breathless as you would expect of a killer and so I would rule him out after all. It has thrown me with the "flames coming out" but it could just be curtains alight or something similar. Interesting that he says he was driving by and saw the flames. I guess he would have seen them from a distance as opposed to when he was at the junction as surely it would have been a job to see 6 floors up.

Not sure on the relevance of how long it takes to drink a cup of coffee is but the whole process could easily take over half an hour. Waiting for kettle to boil, drink to cool down then chatting away. Joy doesn't strike me as someone who would kick someone out as she wanted to go to bed, she would stay and listen to them and try to offer support and compassion. I suspect it was this that sadly led to her death.

BBM. The phone box the call was made from is 2A Fulbourne Road, on the way to Chingford if you are coming from St David's Court. It takes roughly 9 min to get there according to Google Maps so plenty of time for the killer to get his breath back if he is indeed the killer. The inside of the box is shown on the Crimewatch 1996 reconstruction, not long after Joy's death. It looks as if they have used the actual phone box and bus stop in the reconstruction.

 

[GTB72]

I believe the killer is the man caught on CCTV at 10.31pm and that this is the same man who almost ran into traffic exiting the building as per the 1996 reconstruction .

Imo, the reason why the Met don't mention him in the Crimewatch 2015 reconstruction is that they have more chance of getting leads with the CCTV image than appealing for the driver/s to come forward almost 20 years after the event.

The reason why the killer wasn't caught on CCTV is that, Imo, it was on a loop. The official address of St David's Court is 60 Parkstone Road so, presumably , there would be CCTV cameras covering this area as well. The killer has ran onto Forest Road and unfortunately for the Police the CCTV was recording the Parkstone Road side at the time and the killer was able to exit onto Forest Road thus avoiding the CCTV.

The man on the CCTV image is heavy set. Joy's neighbours 2 floors down said they heard someone running down the stairs very heavily. Imo, this person has ran down the stairs and straight out of the building almost colliding with traffic.

The phone call was made at 23.18 from 2A Fulbourne Road. This according to Google Maps is 9 minutes from St David's Court by foot. So if the caller is the killer then he would have left the flats at 23.09. Since I now think that the caller was indeed the killer then it is my opinion that Joy would have have been killed at roughly 23.00 and the fires started soon after.

The caller states they were driving past the flats and saw FLAMES coming from the flat. The Met Police say the fire was a smouldering one. Ergo, In my opinion someone driving past would not be able to spot a fire that was only smouldering and that's why I think the caller is the killer.

As to whether the killer knew Joy I think she did, since it's been stated that she kept her lock on a snib and wouldn't let anyone in she didn't know.

Imo, the killer was living locally but moved away soon after although obviously that is just a theory. You would think that if Joy knew this man through her church and charity work they would have been caught by now. Unless, of course, they are covering up for someone.
Perhaps Joy was in some sort of friendship/relationship with him that only they knew about.

I am still hopeful DNA can solve this crime.

 

[Rookie D]

I believe the killer is the man caught on CCTV at 10.31pm and that this is the same man who almost ran into traffic exiting the building as per the 1996 reconstruction .

Imo, the reason why the Met don't mention him in the Crimewatch 2015 reconstruction is that they have more chance of getting leads with the CCTV image than appealing for the driver/s to come forward almost 20 years after the event.

The reason why the killer wasn't caught on CCTV is that, Imo, it was on a loop. The official address of St David's Court is 60 Parkstone Road so, presumably , there would be CCTV cameras covering this area as well. The killer has ran onto Forest Road and unfortunately for the Police the CCTV was recording the Parkstone Road side at the time and the killer was able to exit onto Forest Road thus avoiding the CCTV.

The man on the CCTV image is heavy set. Joy's neighbours 2 floors down said they heard someone running down the stairs very heavily. Imo, this person has ran down the stairs and straight out of the building almost colliding with traffic.

The phone call was made at 23.18 from 2A Fulbourne Road. This according to Google Maps is 9 minutes from St David's Court by foot. So if the caller is the killer then he would have left the flats at 23.09. Since I now think that the caller was indeed the killer then it is my opinion that Joy would have have been killed at roughly 23.00 and the fires started soon after.

The caller states they were driving past the flats and saw FLAMES coming from the flat. The Met Police say the fire was a smouldering one. Ergo, In my opinion someone driving past would not be able to spot a fire that was only smouldering and that's why I think the caller is the killer.

As to whether the killer knew Joy I think she did, since it's been stated that she kept her lock on a snib and wouldn't let anyone in she didn't know.

Imo, the killer was living locally but moved away soon after although obviously that is just a theory. You would think that if Joy knew this man through her church and charity work they would have been caught by now. Unless, of course, they are covering up for someone.
Perhaps Joy was in some sort of friendship/relationship with him that only they knew about.

I am still hopeful DNA can solve this crime.

Good post


However, the walk from the building to the phone box is only about 4 minutes.

This is because Google Maps takes you the long way around because at present the building is undergoing renovation with cladding etc...so you can't currently circumvent the building without going via Wood Street first.

However, at the time of the murder in 1996, you could come out the Parkstone Road rear exit, turn left, walk past the garages next to the building and then walk down the steps and directly onto Forest road. From here you cross the road and head directly up Fulborne Road. The walk is no longer than 4 or 5 minutes depending on your walking pace.

9 minutes is not an accurate time because there was no construction at the time and so you didn't need to walk south and then double back on yourself by walking back up Wood Street.

That means that if the killer was the man who made the call at 23.18pm, the very latest he could have started the fires would have been at 23.15pm. That's 3 minutes to run down the stairs, run across the road and then up Fulborne Road to the phone box on the other side of the road.

Also, the man who was seen running out the building was a 6ft 4" black male, whereas the man in the CCTV is definitely NOT the same man.

Hence why I believe there were 2 men involved. The white man on CCTV being the killer, and the black male who ran down the stairs, who nearly got hit by a car and then IMO ran and made the 999 phone call, was the man who started the fires after the killer had already left the flats around 15 minutes earlier, in order for the killer to give himself an alibi.

 

[GTB72]

Good post


However, the walk from the building to the phone box is only about 4 minutes.

This is because Google Maps takes you the long way around because at present the building is undergoing renovation with cladding etc...so you can't currently circumvent the building without going via Wood Street first.

However, at the time of the murder in 1996, you could come out the Parkstone Road rear exit, turn left, walk past the garages next to the building and then walk down the steps and directly onto Forest road. From here you cross the road and head directly up Fulborne Road. The walk is no longer than 4 or 5 minutes depending on your walking pace.

9 minutes is not an accurate time because there was no construction at the time and so you didn't need to walk south and then double back on yourself by walking back up Wood Street.

That means that if the killer was the man who made the call at 23.18pm, the very latest he could have started the fires would have been at 23.15pm. That's 3 minutes to run down the stairs, run across the road and then up Fulborne Road to the phone box on the other side of the road.

Also, the man who was seen running out the building was a 6ft 4" black male, whereas the man in the CCTV is definitely NOT the same man.

Hence why I believe there were 2 men involved. The white man on CCTV being the killer, and the black male who ran down the stairs, who nearly got hit by a car and then IMO ran and made the 999 phone call, was the man who started the fires after the killer had already left the flats around 15 minutes earlier, in order for the killer to give himself an alibi.

BBM. If you watch the Crimewatch 1996 reconstruction Nick Ross says A MALE was seen running from the flats onto Forest Road. There is absolutely no source for the man running from the building being black. Not by the Met, the media or the Crimewatch reconstructions. Of course, if you can quote your source then I will accept I am wrong.
Re the time descrepancy however you are correct. The 9 min timescale was via Wood Street so my timings are 5 mins out.
Edited by me.