GUILTY UK - Karen Buckley, 24, Glasgow, Scotland, 12 April 2015 - #1

[Clio]

James Matthews ‏@jamesmatthewsky · 14 mins14 minutes ago
BREAKING: Alexander Pacteau charged with murder and attempting to defeat the ends of justice. No plea or declaration

Sinéad Hussey ‏@SineadHus · 37 secs38 seconds ago
21 year old Alexander Pacteau charged with the murder of Karen Buckley

 

[Clio]

Sinéad Hussey ‏@SineadHus · 35 secs36 seconds ago
Alexander Pacteau made no plea and has been remanded in custody.

Rebecca Gray ‏@RGrayHT · 3 mins3 minutes ago
Pacteau made no plea or declaration and was remanded in custody. He is due in court again next week. #KarenBuckley

 

[Giraffe]

James Matthews ‏@jamesmatthewsky · 14 mins14 minutes ago
BREAKING: Alexander Pacteau charged with murder and attempting to defeat the ends of justice. No plea or declaration

Sinéad Hussey ‏@SineadHus · 37 secs38 seconds ago
21 year old Alexander Pacteau charged with the murder of Karen Buckley

BBM- this seems to tie in with the suspicions voiced here regarding attempts to conceal the body?

Not very familiar with the Scottish justice system, but I recall from the Mikaeel Kular case that after the initial court appearance for the charges, the case went very quiet for a long time. Will the same process take place in this case does anyone know? What are the next steps?

 

[Alyce]

BBM- this seems to tie in with the suspicions voiced here regarding attempts to conceal the body?

Not very familiar with the Scottish justice system, but I recall from the Mikaeel Kular case that after the initial court appearance for the charges, the case went very quiet for a long time. Will the same process take place in this case does anyone know? What are the next steps?

I expect this will be the same and we wont hear any more ( other than a brief report after a court appearance ) until the trial. Assuming of course that there is a trial.
IIRC the Scottish system sets a time limit, by which the accused has to be brought to trial - quoted in days I think

 

[YidArmyRach]

My days of going out to clubs are behind me now but is it really so unsafe that if your friend slips off for an hour you'd keep hold of her glass in case her drink had been spiked?

I'm taking that report with a pinch of salt, the logistics of the police being able to get hold of the glass seem too unlikely to me

JMO

Maybe she had been acting a bit differently, or said that she felt dizzy, tired etc, so when they couldn't find her, they kept her glass.

I've had my drink spiked before when I was in my 20's. Luckily my friend was able to look after me. It hit me all of a sudden, I hadn't felt any different up to that point. I had only had a glass of wine, and we were sharing a table in a bar with a group of 4 men, when I was starting my second. I felt fine, got up to go to the toilet, which was some way away, and when I opened the cubicle door, my legs just went from under me. I hit the wall, then landed on the door. I just couldn't control my limbs. Dragged myself to sit on the toilet with my head resting on the wall to stay upright, but I simply couldn't move. I kept falling asleep and then waking up again. I was in there for ages, I remember my friend coming in and calling my name, but I couldn't speak. I found my phone and text her to, but didn't realise she'd left her phone in her car. Some time later, she bought the staff to the toilet and they managed to open the door. I still couldn't walk at that point, and she took me home in a taxi. It was a scary experience. I wonder if Karen went outside to get some fresh air as she was feeling woozy and that's when he struck?

In some ways, I hope Karen was drugged because she would have been less aware of what was happening and hopefully not very conscious.

I feel so sorry for her friends, who did everything right but sadly it happened so quickly that she was likely out of the club before they realised anything was wrong. And I really hope people do not remember the "consensual sex" comment as I don't think it happened that way at all. She was out with her mates that night and I believe she intended to stay with her mates, and go home with them.

 

[HearsayDwarf]

This is just hearsay, and I apologise for it, but I don't have the means to look into this any further currently, I can only post. I heard from a friend who was listening to the radio yesterday (possibly BBC radio Scotland) that some of the vehicles present at the crime scene specialised in dealing with hazardous materials. It was speculated that Pacteau had tried to dissolve Buckley's remains in acid. If the express's headline was true, and "body parts" were indeed found, it's possible that Pacteau killed Karen, dismembered her, took her out into the countryside and tried to dispose of her "remains" with acid. God love her and her family.

If that's true, that shows just how much Pacteau had planned this attack. If he actually snatched her (as I believe), rather than her going to his flat, that's even more worrying. The importance of his counterfeiting fiasco and his pretensions to being a "company director" at 21 etc (man with a van more like) suggests he's a fantasist with delusions of grandeur. Incredibly worrying. I don't want to say he seems like "serial killer" material, considering he's probably never killed anyone else, just that he has that kind of predatory, psychopathic mindset that makes him incredibly dangerous to the general public.

I don't think this was a crime of passion, or a rape gone wrong, I think Pacteau stalked Buckley over a period of time and carefully planned and eventually executed her kidnapping and murder. JMO.

EDIT:

After posting the above... is there a danger I could be in contempt of court for saying that? Maybe I should delete my theory.

 

[Bravo]

:welcome3:

 

[Irishguy]

He was charged with murder and attempting to defeat justice, this charge may come from the misleading information such as she left his flat on foot at 4 am. I'm not familiar with Scotish law but is it possible to add further charges down the line?

Many have been commenting that signs of a serial killer exist in this case etc, I disagree he made a very poor attempt at concealing items after the killing, throwing the bag in a bin at the entrance of a park where it would most likely be recovered. Throwing the knife in a canal at the rear of the apartments again an area that would likely be searched if he was a suspect. Also in disposing of the body he chose a rural farm that obviously had comings and goings, he aroused the concerns of people in the area because they called the Police about the car. He may have planned it but I fear it was an impulsive spur of the moment attack on a vulnerable young woman.

The question is what happened between the early hours of Sunday morning when she went missing and Monday afternoon when the grey car was spotted acting strange near where the body was recovered.

 

[gregjrichards]

Statement from Scottish Crown Office

"A spokesman for Scotland's Crown Office said: 'Alexander Pacteau, 21, from Glasgow, appeared at Glasgow Sheriff Court today charged with the murder of Karen Buckley, and with attempting to defeat the ends of justice.

'He made no plea or declaration and was remanded in custody. It is anticipated he will appear again next week for a further hearing.

'It would be inappropriate to comment further at this stage in proceedings.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...mpting-defeat-ends-justice.html#ixzz3Xa4ywdBl
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

[suzyjackson]

Statement from Scottish Crown Office

"A spokesman for Scotland's Crown Office said: 'Alexander Pacteau, 21, from Glasgow, appeared at Glasgow Sheriff Court today charged with the murder of Karen Buckley, and with attempting to defeat the ends of justice.

'He made no plea or declaration and was remanded in custody. It is anticipated he will appear again next week for a further hearing.

'It would be inappropriate to comment further at this stage in proceedings.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...mpting-defeat-ends-justice.html#ixzz3Xa4ywdBl
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Does Scottish law make a distinction between pre-meditated murder and manslaughter?

 

[Bravo]

This may or may not be his first kill. I agree ^ he was not the brightest at covering up his crime. I don't get the feeling this is his first rodeo. It may be his first that ended in murder. Sadly.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3043221/Karen-Buckley-Suspect-court-charge.html

Pictured smiling with her brothers: Hometown friends and colleagues remember Karen Buckley, the girl who couldn't do too much to help

 

[gregjrichards]

Does Scottish law make a distinction between pre-meditated murder and manslaughter?

Very complex part one of answer. Manslaughter is known as culpable homicide in Scotland.

A murder charge is appropriate when there is mitigating or aggravated factors involved in the crime. It's very complex this link is a great source of information. I think the aggravated factor of concealment of Karen's body is in play in this case. Possibly physical or mental suffering before death as well.

"Aggravating and Mitigating Factors
Having set a starting point the court must take into account any aggravating or mitigating factors, to the extent that it has not allowed for them in its choice of starting point (paragraph 8, Schedule 21).

Under paragraph 9, detailed consideration of aggravating or mitigating factors may result in a minimum term of any length (whatever the starting point) or in the making of a whole life order.

Aggravating factors that may be relevant include:

a) a significant degree of planning or premeditation;
b) the victim was vulnerable because of age or disability;
c) mental or physical suffering inflicted on the victim before death;
d) the abuse of a position of trust;
e) the use of duress or threats against another person to facilitate the commission of the offence;
f) the victim was providing a public service or performing a public duty; and
g) concealment, destruction or dismemberment of the body.

Mitigating factors include:

a) an intention to cause serious bodily harm rather than kill;
b) lack of premeditation;
c) the offender suffers from a mental disorder or disability (not falling within section 2(1) of the Homicide Act 1957) which lowered their degree of culpability;
d) the offender was provoked in a way not amounting to a defence of provocation;
e) the offender acted to any extent in self-defence;
f) a belief by the offender that the murder was an act of mercy;
g) the age of the offender.

The court should also consider any previous convictions, whether the offence was committed on bail and if the offender pleaded guilty."

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_-_mandatory_life_sentences_in_murder_cases/#an08

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I suppose after 15 minutes her friends might have gone and looked in the loos, not found her there and looked around the club. Once they'd ascertained she'd left (without her coat and without mentioning it to anyone) they'd have known something was up. Perhaps they'd seen AP in there (there are rumours on an Irish forum he'd been pestering her beforehand) and realised he'd gone too. Tried her phone, no answer. If it were me and my friends I would know something was up pretty quickly, I guess it all depends how untypical it was for her to go AWOL. Mind you, perhaps not so concerned when I was 24! The thing is, this all happened at 1am and she was reported missing at 5am. That poor group of friends will have been frantic by the end having tried everything they could do track her down, can you imagine, what an awful end to a night out.

 

[suzyjackson]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3043221/Karen-Buckley-Suspect-court-charge.html

Pictured smiling with her brothers: Hometown friends and colleagues remember Karen Buckley, the girl who couldn't do too much to help



View attachment 73279

She certainly took a good picture, I haven't seen one that isn't lovely of her.

 

[gregjrichards]

Does Scottish law make a distinction between pre-meditated murder and manslaughter?

More info from Scottish government website. Manslaughter known as Culpable Homicide in Scotland.

"Murder is committed when the accused has acted with the intention of killing the victim or where the accused's conduct has been 'wickedly reckless'.

Culpable homicide is committed where the accused has caused loss of life through wrongful conduct, but where there was no intention to kill or 'wicked recklessness'. This may also be considered where in law the accused is found to be of "diminished responsibility" because of some mental illness, or where there was provocation.

Wicked recklessness will be inferred from the circumstances of the accused's actions. Normally this will be based on the severity of the injuries and other factors about the nature of the assault.

In some cases, an accused may be charged initially with murder but Crown Counsel may decide that the evidence does not support a murder charge. The accused will then be tried on a charge of culpable homicide or, possibly another charge such as assault. Changes like this can also happen during the trial.

VIA will advise you about any changes like this. Where possible, you will be given the reasons for a change to the original charge. It may not always be possible to give you a full explanation at the time the decision is made - in some cases this is because it might cause problems in bringing the case to trial."

http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2004/12/20339/47561

 

[gregjrichards]

She certainly took a good picture, I haven't seen one that isn't lovely of her.

Karen was a lovely young woman nobody has a bad word to say about her and she will be missed terribly. Karen's poor friends who were out with her that night must be devastated by what's happened and wish they had never gone out.

 

[gregjrichards]

Perverting the course of justice charge information from the Crown Prosecution Service

Perverting the Course of Justice

Date Produced: 1 July 2011
Title: Administration of Justice
Offence: Perverting the Course of Justice
Legislation: Common law
Mode of Trial: Indictable only
Statutory Limitations & Maximum Penalty: At large
Sentencing Range: 4 months to 36 months

Aggravating & Mitigating Factors
Nature and number of offences
Whether premeditated or spontaneous
Degree of persistence
Arrest of innocent person
Innocent person maliciously targeted
Any impact upon prosecution
Relevant Sentencing Guidelines
R v Tunney [2007] 1 Cr. App. R. (S) 91
The sentence appropriate for perverting the course of justice essentially depends on three matters:

the seriousness of the substantive offence to which the perverting of the course of justice related;
the degree of persistence; and
the effect of the attempt to pervert the course of justice on the course of justice itself.

Relevant Sentencing Case Law
General sentencing brackets summarised in Archbold at 28-28 as follows:

threatening or interfering with witnesses - 4 months to 24 months

concealing evidence - 4 months to 18 months, possibly longer if serious crime

false allegation of crime resulting in arrest of innocent person - 4 to 12 months

Recent Decisions reported in Current Sentencing Practice reported at B 8-2.3 divided into: interference with prosecution witness; threatening or intimidating witness; making false allegation of crime; concealing evidence; interfering with jurors; false information in mitigation.

AG's Ref (No. 1 of 1990) (John Cameron Atkinson) (1990-1991) 12 Cr. App. R. (S.) 245
Sentence should normally be consecutive to substantive offence.

AG's Ref (No 35 of 2009) (R v Binsteed) [2010] 1 Cr. App. R. (S.) 61
Sentences of imprisonment should not normally be suspended.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manual/perverting_the_course_of_justice/

 

[gregjrichards]

Accused must be brought to trial normally within 12 months in Scot's Law

"Under the present law, the time limits for trials under solemn procedure (i.e. jury trials) are as follows:
Where the accused is remanded in custody to await trial, the trial must start within 110 days of full committal for trial. The prosecution must issue the indictment - the detailed charges which the accused has to answer - not less than 29 days before the start of the trial. The indictment must, therefore, be issued by the 80th day.

Where the accused is at liberty, the trial must start within 12 months of the first appearance by the accused on petition in respect of the offence. Again the prosecution must issue the indictment not less than 29 days in advance of the start of the trial.

The consequence of inadvertently breaching either the 110 day time limit or the 12 month time limit is that the accused will be free for all time from the charges.

The custody time limit can only be extended by a High Court judge, whether in a sheriff and jury or a High Court case. The 110 day or 12 month time limits can be extended by the Court on application by the Crown or the defence or both. The Crown can also apply to extend the 80 day time limit, but not by reason of some fault by the prosecutor.

If the Crown fail to bring an accused person to trial within the time defined by statute then the person accused of the crime must be released and can never be tried again. This applies irrespective of the seriousness of the crime. It also applies where all parties were ready for the trial to commence but there has been a simple human error in the calculation of the date."

http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2003/06/17498/22830

Useful information about trial procedure and time limits in Scotland - http://www.lemac.co.uk/resources/guides/Solemn_procedure.htm

 

[Irishguy]

Very little if any reporting of the cause of death in this case or the way she was found. In other cases these issues were reported widely. Very little if any in this case which troubles me as it may have been horrific beyond comprehension.