VERDICT WATCH UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #24

[Newthoughts]

I agree ,everyone ...no matter how repulsive..is entitled to a fair trial...there was no choice really but to bring up her mental health when she had stated a method of suicide so relevant to the case .. albeit years ago ...especially as her boyfriend felt she had been self harming just weeks earlier.
Although I didn't like the way the defence worded some of evidence...it was relevant.
I do not think they dragged her name through the mud it was just relevant

Everyone is entitled to a fair trial - including the victims. It isn't just about protecting the innocent it's getting justice for the victims of the guilty as well.

There are far fairer ways to have dealt with this

 

[Sooty]

Dont forget though that Libby was at Uni and the Unis do have excellent support in place for mental health issues. So students dont need to seek help locally as such, it's far more accessible.

That is true. However, someone with mental health struggles may not want to get better, or may want to appear as fully ‘well’ so may not seek out any help. Unfortunately, it is very complex, it’s not something that you put behind you after a spell of monitoring for the vast majority.

 

[Newthoughts]

I agree with you @Chambo1994 as uncomfortable as it is for all of us, it did have to be explored.

Further, I would add that being ‘discharged’ at age 18 by CAMHS at age 18 is often down to the transition to adult services. Your care under CAMHS, in most cases, comes to an end once you have reached 18. CAMHS can do a referral for continued care, but this depends on may different factors, including what services are available locally. Adult services works in a completely different way for the vast majority, and there is a far heavier reliance upon the patient’s will to engage and make demands of the services that are available, unless hospitalised.

This is my own opinion based upon a close friends current, and very frustrating, experience.

All University have mental health services. Hull is very good at caring for its students. Philosophy is quite a small course as well. So she wouldn't have gone unnoticed like say some of the larger numberss crammed into medicine or law

 

[JosieJo]

Everyone is entitled to a fair trial - including the victims. It isn't just about protecting the innocent it's getting justice for the victims of the guilty as well.

There are far fairer ways to have dealt with this

I agree absolutely..just not sure how else the mental health could have been dealt with really.. if it wasn't relevant the judge could have disallowed it and if the prosecution felt an expert witness could have thrown better light on it they could have.

 

[NorthernSoul]

What are your doubts? Genuine question. If it's the screams then you have the problem of only one set being heard. So you have to look at everything else. And draw inferences from the wording of experts.

My doubts:
1. There is no forensic evidence to suggest murder over any other cause of death.
2. We cannot prove PR entered the park.
3. The second and third witnesses of screams fitted better with the defence case; PR was not in the area at 12.30.
4. I personally find it unlikely that a person who had just murdered for the first time would then go out and roam around in the vicinity of the murder where passers-by might notice him and later report his presence, acting as though nothing had happened and actually in fact drawing attention to himself.
5. There is no evidence of internet searches which indicate that PR is interested in physical violence against others and no history of it or witness statements describing this from colleagues or friends.
6. Libby was in an inebriated state which I can relate to and I know when you are "blind drunk" your behaviour can be extremely unpredictable. The witness statements re screaming and so on make me feel her distress was very heightened; I drive home from work through a very busy student area and I'm used to seeing young people lying on the pavement drunk with their friends trying to pull them upright or holding them up as they walk. To me, Libby's distress was at another level to this. When you have mentioned previously, why did she then not walk under a bus? we have to remember that later on Libby had been subjected to a vile sexual assault. How much worse was she feeling in the aftermath to this if she was still conscious? So I don't feel I can predict what Libby would do or where she would walk, especially considering she had walked in odd directions and gone to odd places earlier.

These are my doubts, balanced against PR's lies, the circumstantial evidence and the likelihood of a poor young girl having the misfortune to come to the attention of a predator and then the same night having the further misfortune to somehow get herself into a river. But then the first could have caused the second.

 

[Newthoughts]

That is true. However, someone with mental health struggles may not want to get better, or may want to appear as fully ‘well’ so may not seek out any help. Unfortunately, it is very complex, it’s not something that you put behind you after a spell of monitoring for the vast majority.

And that fools mental health experts? Particularly CAMHS? I've had to speak to them about students on many occasions - believe me they're pretty savvy.

 

[Newthoughts]

My doubts:
1. There is no forensic evidence to suggest murder over any other cause of death.
2. We cannot prove PR entered the park.
3. The second and third witnesses of screams fitted better with the defence case; PR was not in the area at 12.30.
4. I personally find it unlikely that a person who had just murdered for the first time would then go out and roam around in the vicinity of the murder where passers-by might notice him and later report his presence, acting as though nothing had happened and actually in fact drawing attention to himself.
5. There is no evidence of internet searches which indicate that PR is interested in physical violence against others and no history of it or witness statements describing this from colleagues or friends.
6. Libby was in an inebriated state which I can relate to and I know when you are "blind drunk" your behaviour can be extremely unpredictable. The witness statements re screaming and so on make me feel her distress was very heightened; I drive home from work through a very busy student area and I'm used to seeing young people lying on the pavement drunk with their friends trying to pull them upright or holding them up as they walk. To me, Libby's distress was at another level to this. When you have mentioned previously, why did she then not walk under a bus? we have to remember that later on Libby had been subjected to a vile sexual assault. How much worse was she feeling in the aftermath to this if she was still conscious? So I don't feel I can predict what Libby would do or where she would walk, especially considering she had walked in odd directions and gone to odd places earlier.

These are my doubts, balanced against PR's lies, the circumstantial evidence and the likelihood of a poor young girl having the misfortune to come to the attention of a predator and then the same night having the further misfortune to somehow get herself into a river. But then the first could have caused the second.

Ok now to accord Libby the same consideration because the trial is for both of them - how do you account for what PR was doing in the 7 minutes when he wasn't raping Libby?

All you have is his account that it was outside the park. He hasn't given the option of taking her in there for some reason so you really can't consider it.

You must also take into account Libby's state and that there is a time limit to how long she would survive

The expert gave us an estimated body temp of 35. Seriously impairing her ability to escape.

Libby is young and healthy but all her body resources are going into trying to maintain that and that is exhausting (another argument against suicide get body is in survival mode).

So she has to get into the park and that river before it drops to the point where she is too exhausted and blood sugar too low? Remember the effort to get up a bank and thru mud is greater than a pavement and she has only limited time till the next stage when she decides to lie down.

 

[MsMiniSleuth]

Am I right in thinking he’s sitting in his car waiting for the Romanians to stop pestering Libby? We see a car drive off (theirs?)) and he’s immediately up and off back to retrieve Libby.

Was this the car in the 'spider' CCTV we saw drive off before he left Haworth Road? These never came forward?

 

[Chambo1994]

Dont forget though that Libby was at Uni and the Unis do have excellent support in place for mental health issues. So students dont need to seek help locally as such, it's far more accessible.

I agree, but that’s only if the person chooses to seek it or is referred. A lot of depression sufferers choose not to seek help for a variety of reasons.

The Uni doesn’t have the capacity to individually speak to students to monitor mental health issues currently, however I do know that is something which is being explored.

 

[MsMiniSleuth]

PR doesn't have to give a reasonable explanation...it shouldn't be a case of whose version do we believe.
He could have said nothing ...the question the jury must ask themselves is ...from the evidence the prosecution have presented are they sure he murdered her

Exactly. I personally do not feel there is sufficient evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt that he did.

 

[Sooty]

And that fools mental health experts? Particularly CAMHS? I've had to speak to them about students on many occasions - believe me they're pretty savvy.

It wasn’t a suggestion that mental health services are easily fooled - however, they are limited by what they can achieve unless help is directly sought. My point is that as an adult the control and determination over care is passed to the sufferer in a case like LS.

It is a very complex area.

Not everyone who one may regard as ‘unwell’ sees themselves that way, and, unfortunately, not everyone who one may regard as in need of help, will want to accept that help and be ‘forced’ to be ‘better’. I have direct experience caring for someone to which this latter statement applies. MOO

 

[Chambo1994]

All University have mental health services. Hull is very good at caring for its students. Philosophy is quite a small course as well. So she wouldn't have gone unnoticed like say some of the larger numberss crammed into medicine or law

Again I’d put this down to us both having different experiences of mental health issues and our view on mental health issues.

There are plenty of people with mental health issues such as depression that would give off no reason to be reported by friends, family, colleagues etc

There no set mannerism to depression. You do not have to sit around looking sad all day when depressed.

 

[occasionalposter]

Can anyone tell me what the jurors will be doing today? Will they come into the court and then sent off to a room til they've decided?

Presumably, news wise this could be a total nothing day, or the biggest day (with a verdict) and this kind of day could carry on and on til we get the biggest day?

 

[jamjim]

Can anyone tell me what the jurors will be doing today? Will they come into the court and then sent off to a room til they've decided?

Presumably, news wise this could be a total nothing day, or the biggest day (with a verdict) and this kind of day could carry on and on til we get the biggest day?

Correct They'll arrive and be sent to the deliberation room, where they'll stay today either until they've reached a verdict, or if not, when court adjourns for the day, normally around 4:30pm.

If they don't reach a verdict today, they'll be back Monday to do the same thing until they reach a verdict.

 

[NorthernSoul]

Ok now to accord Libby the same consideration because the trial is for both of them - how do you account for what PR was doing in the 7 minutes when he wasn't raping Libby?

All you have is his account that it was outside the park. He hasn't given the option of taking her in there for some reason so you really can't consider it.

You must also take into account Libby's state and that there is a time limit to how long she would survive

The expert gave us an estimated body temp of 35. Seriously impairing her ability to escape.

Libby is young and healthy but all her body resources are going into trying to maintain that and that is exhausting (another argument against suicide get body is in survival mode).

So she has to get into the park and that river before it drops to the point where she is too exhausted and blood sugar too low? Remember the effort to get up a bank and thru mud is greater than a pavement and she has only limited time till the next stage when she decides to lie down.

Of course I accord Libby the same consideration. As someone has just said in a recent post, PR has to get a very drunk Libby out of the car. She is either very confused as to why she is there or semi-conscious, perhaps asleep due to the warmth of the car. Either way it's unlikely she wants to get out. We cannot know how long the actual assault took. We don't know what he did and I could say more on what he could or could not have been doing - frightening/taunting etc. but I don't really even want to think about it let alone write something down. Suffice it to say the timing does not seem unlikely to me.

From the blog I posted a link to earlier it appears in this sort of weather a lot of the ground would be frozen. The images do not appear to show Libby having to go up a river bank - the flat grass surface leads directly to the drop into the river. It is mentioned on the blog that the ground is slippery at that time of year and the blog poster fell once. We see in the earlier footage of Libby the classic sideways stumble of someone who has been drinking. I don't believe it is impossible she headed away from the gates and her attacker. Maybe she was afraid of going on to the road where he might come back in his car and so she wanted to hide. I have seen other posters say the distance to the river would be the same she earlier walked from the taxi to the bus stop so I don't consider it impossible under the power of adrenaline and fear. I agree with you that every moment she would be becoming more hypothermic and this I also think may have added to her being unsteady and disoriented.

So I do consider this a credible scenario. It does not have to be what I believe. It has to be a possibility to introduce reasonable doubt. The law says it is not for the defendant to prove they are not guilty, the prosecution must prove they are.

 

[Sera]

Oh, to be a fly on the wall in a jury deliberation room!

 

[tedtink]

Usually people who attempt suicide don't do it on impulse.
Normally, a suicide victim would engage in planning the act, most go to great research in order to follow through on the chosen act.
There can be weeks or months of preoccupied, morbid thoughts about suicide and although the planning and intent is usually a closely guarded secret, there are usually 'clues' picked up by loved ones who are close to the depressed individual. Especially if a close relationship is involved.
Libby had just gone back to Uni from home.
Her Mum said they were very close, and I'm sure her Mum would have picked up on any nuances in her mood, but said she was happy.
There was no evidence that Libby had researched suicide recently online or anywhere else.

I think it's the way the defense seized on the 'throwing myself in the river' that struck a cord.
This was obviously done on purpose to 'register' prominently in the Jury's minds as I'm sure in the past that Libby may have discussed other ways of suicide too. But the defence chose that one method.

I think it's highly unlikely that Libby put herself in the river.
This comes from my own experience in those matters, professionally and personally and having friends and family who have taken their own lives.

JMO

 

[MsMiniSleuth]

Correct They'll arrive and be sent to the deliberation room, where they'll stay today either until they've reached a verdict, or if not, when court adjourns for the day, normally around 4:30pm.

If they don't reach a verdict today, they'll be back Monday to do the same thing until they reach a verdict.

Do we know how the jury is made up, number of women and men?

It will be interesting to see if they reach a relatively prompt verdict, as opposed to several days of deliberation indicating a variance of opinion and finding it hard to reach a majority decision.

 

[Jarvis1969]

Do we know how the jury is made up, number of women and men?

It will be interesting to see if they reach a relatively prompt verdict, as opposed to several days of deliberation indicating a variance of opinion and finding it hard to reach a majority decision.

Was it not 5 men and 7 woman? I will try to find the post

 

[jamjim]

Do we know how the jury is made up, number of women and men?

It will be interesting to see if they reach a relatively prompt verdict, as opposed to several days of deliberation indicating a possible vatiance

Seven women, five men:

"The jury, consisting of seven women and five men, retired at 2.41pm on Thursday, following the 14 day trial at Sheffield Crown Court"

Jury in Libby Squire murder trial retires to consider verdict as judge explains manslaughter verdict is an option