VERDICT WATCH UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #24

[Newthoughts]

PR doesn't have to give a reasonable explanation...it shouldn't be a case of whose version do we believe.
He could have said nothing ...the question the jury must ask themselves is ...from the evidence the prosecution have presented are they sure he murdered her

He doesn't have to give an explanation as we've seen. But as he is currently the only living person that knows what happened the jury can only work on what they've been given by him.

I think he took her into the park and murdered as per the evidence presented.

If he'd admitted to going into the park before the rape, I would be with you in the 'perhaps I have doubts camp.' If he took her close the river there is a likelihood she could have blundered in.

But he hasn't given you that option therefore - to be fair to Libby and protect future victims - surely part of alleviating doubts has to be what were they doing for between 7 and 6.5 minutes in silence.

Or if you believe he went into the park you have to consider why he lied about it

 

[Zazie]

Deleted - duplicate post.

 

[Jarvis1969]

deleted - duplicate post

 

[Jarvis1969]

Was it not 5 men and 7 woman? I will try to find the post

This was where it was stated about the jurors - I did a google translate

"Był seks między nami - taki zmysłowy" - brak dowodów na morderstwo! | The Polish Telegraph

 

[Newthoughts]

PR doesn't have to give a reasonable explanation...it shouldn't be a case of whose version do we believe.
He could have said nothing ...the question the jury must ask themselves is ...from the evidence the prosecution have presented are they sure he murdered her

He doesn't have to give an explanation as we've seen. But as he is currently the only living person that knows what happened the jury can only work on what they've been given by him.

I think he took her into the park and murdered as per the evidence presented.

If he'd admitted to that before the rape, I would be with you in the 'perhaps I have doubts camp.' If he took her close the river there is a likelihood she could have blundered in.

But he hasn't given you that option therefore - to be fair to Libby and protect future victims - surely part of alleviating doubts has to be what were they doing for between 7 and 6.5 minutes in silence.

Or if you believe he went into the park you have to consider why he lied about it

With the exception of Vermont, I feel that many of the locals on this site who all actually know the park have stated that they do actually have issue with the timing.

Are you suggesting that PR pulled up his car, immediately got Libby out of the car and raped her instantaneously? That there couldn't possibly have been any talking, any cajoling, any scuffling any resistance that nededy to be overcome, any after the event activity? That only that one minute of rape occurred and he then just stood there?

Actually not just @Vermont24 another poster who takes her dog and toddler there says they had no issues with timing. Just after Vermont

 

[jamjim]

"Details: Trial (Part Heard) - Jury retire to consider verdict - 10:35

Sheffield Crown Court 1 T20207204 Pawel Piotr Relowicz"

https://www.thelawpages.com/court-hearings-lists/Sheffield-Crown-Court.php

They're back in deliberation room now

 

[Newthoughts]

Again I’d put this down to us both having different experiences of mental health issues and our view on mental health issues.

There are plenty of people with mental health issues such as depression that would give off no reason to be reported by friends, family, colleagues etc

There no set mannerism to depression. You do not have to sit around looking sad all day when depressed.

But you do have to consider Libby's physical state - hypothermic and exhausted in survival mode. She has to get to the river from the road if that is her choice I doubt she knows it's there.

You have to consider that rape would also send her into survival mode.

You have to consider her opportunities before PR picked her up. A road with bus stops. Ample opportunity there and far easier.

So how likely is she to think hey I wonder if there is. River here?

 

[Zazie]

With the exception of Vermont, I feel that many of the locals on this site who all actually know the park have stated that they do actually have issue with the timing. Are you suggesting that PR pulled up his car, immediately got Libby out of the car and raped her instantaneously? That there couldn't possibly have been any talking, any cajoling, any scuffling any resistance that nededy to be overcome, any after the event activity? That only that one minute of rape occurred and he then just stood there?

The apparent silence of all the activity in Oak Road within earshot of the houses strongly suggests to me that Libby is comatose when they arrive.

I am also #TeamFox so will discount the later screams which are otherwise the only evidence that she was conscious.

Assuming PR was dealing with someone who was unconscious throughout, he could carry Libby into the park to molest her further or dispose of her, dead or dying, near the boathouse/river bank. But as he does this, sudden loud cries startle him into thinking there is a witness nearby so he leaves. Later he returns to finish the job on his third visit.

There is little sign of struggle on her body and those inner thigh bruises might be the result of his carrying a dead weight some distance into the park.

All my own speculation obviously but I think the apparent absence of noise at Oak Road on arrival, after Libby's been so vocal only minutes before, suggests she had passed out.

(- Edited to add: there are signs of struggle on PR's face though which may have happened before they exit the car. I just can't see the PR chasing Libby around the park while she screams scenario.)

 

[Newthoughts]

Usually people who attempt suicide don't do it on impulse.
Normally, a suicide victim would engage in planning the act, most go to great research in order to follow through on the chosen act.
There can be weeks or months of preoccupied, morbid thoughts about suicide and although the planning and intent is usually a closely guarded secret, there are usually 'clues' picked up by loved ones who are close to the depressed individual. Especially if a close relationship is involved.
Libby had just gone back to Uni from home.
Her Mum said they were very close, and I'm sure her Mum would have picked up on any nuances in her mood, but said she was happy.
There was no evidence that Libby had researched suicide recently online or anywhere else.

I think it's the way the defense seized on the 'throwing myself in the river' that struck a cord.
This was obviously done on purpose to 'register' prominently in the Jury's minds as I'm sure in the past that Libby may have discussed other ways of suicide too. But the defence chose that one method.

I think it's highly unlikely that Libby put herself in the river.
This comes from my own experience in those matters, professionally and personally and having friends and family who have taken their own lives.

I agree totally. If it was even remotely on her mind that night why not walk under a bus on Beverley road?

 

[tedtink]

There no set mannerism to depression. You do not have to sit around looking sad all day when depressed.

That's true.
Depression symptoms vary and the condition ranges from very mild to severe.

But we know Libby was close to her Mum, had just spent time with her and I'm sure she would have picked up on those nuances in Libby's behavior even if she'd had said she wasn't depressed.
JMO

 

[ChiCubs2016]

This is an area where many want reform - I know this was a big topic following the Grace Millane murder. Now Grace got lots of coverage and outrage (rightly) but unfortunately many vulnerable kiwis get assaulted every day by violent men and they don't get the attention.

I am not sure what the solution is, but I do believe overall there is a huge problem with abusive men preying on vulnerable women and children - especially in domestic situations (NZ has a huge DV problem).

Then when things finally end up with someone dead, raped etc - we get into these huge discussions about guilt, victim blaming etc

But at the end of the day the facts are that he preyed upon a vulnerable young woman, raped her in a premeditated way, and placed her in danger.

I feel like the current proceedings have an unreality to them because he can just lie about what happened, and the criminal justice system kind of lacks the tools to impose a broader responsibility on him.

One reform I would like to see is more jeopardy for pre-trial statements. Given his lies about his interactions with Libby, why should he then receive the benefit of the doubt about those lies as proposed by defense counsel?

IMO it should attract a strong negative direction from the judge to the jury.

It's not like he didn't have counsel when he made those statements to police. he was warned. so if you choose to obstruct justice pre-trial, then there should be more consequence at trial.

I agree with this. I actually get insulted when someone is on their 5-6 lie and for some reason believe I should actually accept their latest version as truth. I do not believe they should get the benefit of the doubt and I like your thought about negative direction from the judge. MOO

 

[Newthoughts]

Of course I accord Libby the same consideration. As someone has just said in a recent post, PR has to get a very drunk Libby out of the car. She is either very confused as to why she is there or semi-conscious, perhaps asleep due to the warmth of the car. Either way it's unlikely she wants to get out. We cannot know how long the actual assault took. We don't know what he did and I could say more on what he could or could not have been doing - frightening/taunting etc. but I don't really even want to think about it let alone write something down. Suffice it to say the timing does not seem unlikely to me.

From the blog I posted a link to earlier it appears in this sort of weather a lot of the ground would be frozen. The images do not appear to show Libby having to go up a river bank - the flat grass surface leads directly to the drop into the river. It is mentioned on the blog that the ground is slippery at that time of year and the blog poster fell once. We see in the earlier footage of Libby the classic sideways stumble of someone who has been drinking. I don't believe it is impossible she headed away from the gates and her attacker. Maybe she was afraid of going on to the road where he might come back in his car and so she wanted to hide. I have seen other posters say the distance to the river would be the same she earlier walked from the taxi to the bus stop so I don't consider it impossible under the power of adrenaline and fear. I agree with you that every moment she would be becoming more hypothermic and this I also think may have added to her being unsteady and disoriented.

So I do consider this a credible scenario. It does not have to be what I believe. It has to be a possibility to introduce reasonable doubt. The law says it is not for the defendant to prove they are not guilty, the prosecution must prove they are.

Looking more closely at the CCTV I would think Libby would be relieved to get out of the car. The man that could be a rapist has stopped and she can get out.

I don't think rape takes very long. The prosecution point to CCTV suggesting PR takes seconds.

So what took the time? Surely it is important to examine the doubts you have by examining the alternatives? It is possible given his later stalking he could have done it again that night

 

[Kaykedi]

Oh, to be a fly on the wall in a jury deliberation room!

I don't envy their job, tricky I imagine

 

[Vermont24]

From the blog I posted a link to earlier it appears in this sort of weather a lot of the ground would be frozen. The images do not appear to show Libby having to go up a river bank - the flat grass surface leads directly to the drop into the river.

From the playing fields, you do have to go up a hill to reach the path which runs alongside the river bank. It's not enormous, but Hull is a very flat city and we used to use this area for sledging as kids.

 

[NorthernSoul]

Do we know how the jury is made up, number of women and men?

It will be interesting to see if they reach a relatively prompt verdict, as opposed to several days of deliberation indicating a variance of opinion and finding it hard to reach a majority decision.

I voted for the decision taking a few days due to the complexity of the case and the multiple charges. Without speaking specifically, from my experience on a jury, even if it is quickly established that everyone is in agreement on the verdict, the jury will still go through all of the evidence again in the jury room seeing this as their duty and in case anyone has an important insight or comment that affects someone else's decision. They have a lot to go through here.

 

[Chambo1994]

But you do have to consider Libby's physical state - hypothermic and exhausted in survival mode. She has to get to the river from the road if that is her choice I doubt she knows it's there.

You have to consider that rape would also send her into survival mode.

You have to consider her opportunities before PR picked her up. A road with bus stops. Ample opportunity there and far easier.

So how likely is she to think hey I wonder if there is. River here?

It’s all likely enough to be considered an argument by the defence and that’s all that matters. The jury will decide whether it was likely enough to give doubt about whether she was killed by PR.

I’m not sure what you mean when you say she’s in survival mode to be honest. The argument id put to that is that she had managed to walk a fair distance away from her house (whilst falling and struggling admittedly) and also managed to fight back during the rape and scratch his face. If she was capable of those acts, then I’d suggest she was capable of becoming disorientated and walking into the park too.

As for the car/bus suggestion, again I think we have differing opinions on depression and suicide. I do not see suicide as an impulse decision of “I know, I’ll just jump in the road”. If that’s how you feel suicide goes, then that’s your opinion and you are fully entitled to that.

To reiterate again, I do not believe LS committed suicide. But I am putting across the point that is a perfectly plausible point of discussion for the defence and the jury.

 

[Offaly]

This was where it was stated about the jurors - I did a google translate

"Był seks między nami - taki zmysłowy" - brak dowodów na morderstwo! | The Polish Telegraph

"Details: Trial (Part Heard) - Jury retire to consider verdict - 10:35

Sheffield Crown Court 1 T20207204 Pawel Piotr Relowicz"

https://www.thelawpages.com/court-hearings-lists/Sheffield-Crown-Court.php

They're back in deliberation room now

How do I set an alert as to when they've reached a verdict please?

 

[HLC35]

I agree that I don’t know how else the mental health could be discussed differently for Libby’s case, but it just feels it should have been.

Usually people who attempt suicide don't do it on impulse.
Normally, a suicide victim would engage in planning the act, most go to great research in order to follow through on the chosen act.
There can be weeks or months of preoccupied, morbid thoughts about suicide and although the planning and intent is usually a closely guarded secret, there are usually 'clues' picked up by loved ones who are close to the depressed individual. Especially if a close relationship is involved.
Libby had just gone back to Uni from home.
Her Mum said they were very close, and I'm sure her Mum would have picked up on any nuances in her mood, but said she was happy.
There was no evidence that Libby had researched suicide recently online or anywhere else.

I think it's the way the defense seized on the 'throwing myself in the river' that struck a cord.
This was obviously done on purpose to 'register' prominently in the Jury's minds as I'm sure in the past that Libby may have discussed other ways of suicide too. But the defence chose that one method.

I think it's highly unlikely that Libby put herself in the river.
This comes from my own experience in those matters, professionally and personally and having friends and family who have taken their own lives.

Completely agree. Long story short; I suffered from depression whilst at Uni, and once told my dad I’d throw myself into the River Orwell during an argument...if any of the men that were ‘pesting’ me ever attacked me and threw me into that river then would a defending QC be all over my records and build a defence for a murderer based on something I was going through and said 20 years ago? It was the part of Libby’s personal struggle, that she was clearly working on coming through the other side of, that was used against her to excuse a vile man (that had already offended and terrified/ruined the lives of other women) that made my blood boil and write my first message on here.

 

[Newthoughts]

From what we've heard of prosecution and defence summings up.

The prosecution mention the river, weeds and banks.

The defence spend an inordinate amount of time on Libby's medical records yet appear to spend little time on this

Why? If the terrain is so easy and Libby so capable where is the long defence?

 

[tedtink]

To reiterate again, I do not believe LS committed suicide. But I am putting across the point that is a perfectly plausible point of discussion for the defence and the jury.

I hope that some of the Jurors have an understanding of mental health issues/depression and suicide, I really do.

Would they be able to 'consult' a professional on this or research at home if they had questions regarding this or are they only allowed to go on the 'evidence'?