VERDICT WATCH UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #24

[tigerowl]

For me I have to look at everything. I agree that I don't have your issues with timing because 700 metres is not far and I've seen young lads carrying their girlfriends.

And we both have to agree that our issues with timing are not universally accepted by locals.

But I feel like you that I have to consider all the evidence and for me I have to consider any doubts either way.

If I consider him being not guilty then the only starting point I have is what he said. Which leaves him outside the park for a period of time. Without any suspicious noises from that area.

So I therefore I personally have to come up with something to explain that time. And I really can't. I think that's quite important cos it's a big chunk of time and if he's not guilty it has to be explained IMO. For Libby's sake.


So the alternative is that he is lying about not entering the park.

So if he is lying about that I feel I have to consider why he'd do that. Especially as it's something that increases the chances of Libby falling in herself. That would be enough for me to to say I now have a doubt about his guilt. I don't think Libby can make it to the river from outside the park without succumbing to hypothermia on the way. So inside would introduce doubt.

So I have to ask myself why lie about that? There is no reason to rape her outside the park.

The only explanation I can reach for that lie is he killed her and put her in the water. I cannot reach any other logical reason to lie.

But again that is in conjunction with every other piece of evidence.

But I think it is important to reasonably account for that time if he's not killed Libby

I asked this earlier but I may have missed your response. Are you saying that if you were to believe that he didn't take her into the park, in your mind the only possible thing that happened is that he got her out of the car and raped instantly using the very first 60 seconds of time after arrival? That absolutely no other situation could have occurred? Genuine question.

 

[Newthoughts]

I asked this earlier but I may have missed your response. Are you saying that if you were to believe that he didn't take her into the park, in your mind the only possible thing that happened is that he got her out of the car and raped instantly using the very first 60 seconds of time after arrival? That absolutely no other situation could have occurred? Genuine question.

Nope. I am saying that that time has to be accounted for and I can't reasonably do that without entering unrealistic realms.

Now I'm sure people could try and argue he was persuading her or she was trying it on in that period and he was resisting but he hasn't said that. None of his versions state that. She either tries it on and it happens without protest or he resists

So what could he reasonably be doing.

 

[mrjitty]

So what would that look like in reality? -

'He lied to police and denied having sex with Libby until he was presented with the forensic evidence', so you must what? find he is more likely to be guilty?

The jurors will have already formed an impression of him through seeing him testifying and hearing what he said in police interviews, and having the prosecution hammering home all his changing versions and adaptations after hearing witness evidence. I just don't think there is anything beyond what the judge already said that could be said about it, because the jurors will have the life experience collectively to assess it themselves. There are reasons people lie, one of which is to avoid being convicted. But what weight to attach to each lie, and why he lied, is a matter for 12 jurors, not a direction from the judge, IMO.

These were her words just for interest, and I imagine they are the carefully worded and the same words used for all cases based on case law -


Jury must consider why Relowicz told lies
During the trial Reolowicz admitted lying about some of the details that night.

Justice Lambert said: “During his evidence he admitted he told a number of lies and said he did not want his wife to know he had cheated on her and what he was up to that night.

"When you’re considering this evidence you must consider why he lied and you must consider that people who are not guilty also lie for other reasons.

"You must not convict him on either offence only because he lied."

Libby Squire murder trial updates as jury consider verdict

It's a complex area, but I believe there might have been grounds for the Judge to deliver an adverse inference because the accused has failed to mention matters in his police interview, which he has then relied on at trial - being facts he ought reasonably to have revealed.

That is different to noting the defences own case that he lied. It's like a specific direction.

But like you say, it might be somewhat academic.

 

[Jarvis1969]

If they come out before 4 and say that they have reached a verdict, will the court allow for it to go on after 4 or will they get them back Monday? Her poor Family & Friends, it must be torturous for them

 

[Tortoise]

Curious to know what evidence as that could give an indication of which way they’re swaying

I imagine it might have been evidence received from a statement then. Because it's unlikely they would have a transcript available of actual court testimony. Just a guess though.






Sophie Corcoran

@sophcorcoran
·
1h

Was evidence requested to be re read

 

[Sooty]

7.5 minutes is not a lot of time when interacting with another person.

Particularly if a person might be uncoordinated, difficult to communicate with and feeling ill, distressed, combative and agitated.

It took 30 seconds or so for them both to exit the car from what I could make out on cctv.

His version in court gave some processes that occurred - many of them are not limited in time or extent - retching, feeling sick, going for a wee, coming and standing next to the car, kissing and hugging, laying down, having sex, more retching, attempted kissing, fighting, screaming, getting in the car etc etc.

my interpretation of events from his evidence only.

 

[NorthernSoul]

For me I have to look at everything. I agree that I don't have your issues with timing because 700 metres is not far and I've seen young lads carrying their girlfriends.

And we both have to agree that our issues with timing are not universally accepted by locals.

But I feel like you that I have to consider all the evidence and for me I have to consider any doubts either way.

If I consider him being not guilty then the only starting point I have is what he said. Which leaves him outside the park for a period of time. Without any suspicious noises from that area.

So I therefore I personally have to come up with something to explain that time. And I really can't. I think that's quite important cos it's a big chunk of time and if he's not guilty it has to be explained IMO. For Libby's sake.


So the alternative is that he is lying about not entering the park.

So if he is lying about that I feel I have to consider why he'd do that. Especially as it's something that increases the chances of Libby falling in herself. That would be enough for me to to say I now have a doubt about his guilt. I don't think Libby can make it to the river from outside the park without succumbing to hypothermia on the way. So inside would introduce doubt.

So I have to ask myself why lie about that? There is no reason to rape her outside the park.

The only explanation I can reach for that lie is he killed her and put her in the water. I cannot reach any other logical reason to lie.

But again that is in conjunction with every other piece of evidence.

But I think it is important to reasonably account for that time if he's not killed Libby

You have mentioned twice that 700m is not far for PR to carry a body. But you also say it is far if Libby is walking it?

 

[Financejane]

7.5 minutes is not a lot of time when interacting with another person.

Particularly if a person might be uncoordinated, difficult to communicate with and feeling ill, distressed, combative and agitated.

It took 30 seconds or so for them both to exit the car from what I could make out on cctv.

His version in court gave some processes that occurred - retching, feeling sick, going for a wee, coming and standing next to the car, kissing and hugging, laying down, having sex, more retching, attempted kissing, fighting, screaming, getting in the car etc etc.

my interpretation of events from his evidence only.

I couldn’t watch videos until I became a member. You don’t recall who posted that do you? I know that’s probably a stretch with the number of posts there are!

 

[Becky53]

Weather forecast warnings for Sheffield from tomorrow to Wednesday

Sheffield - BBC Weather

 

[Sooty]

@Financejane

I think this might be the link
Libby Squire trial CCTV

 

[Joolz1975]

It's a complex area, but I believe there might have been grounds for the Judge to deliver an adverse inference because the accused has failed to mention matters in his police interview, which he has then relied on at trial - being facts he ought reasonably to have revealed.

That is different to noting the defences own case that he lied. It's like a specific direction.

But like you say, it might be somewhat academic.

I want to reply to this MrJ but I have headache and have taken codeine so cannot think straight enough to phrase it correctly .

Will come back to it later if I remember though!

As always appreciate your input it always makes me think things from a different perspective.

 

[Alyce]

Sophie Corcoran
@sophcorcoran
·
45s
No verdict reached today. Jurors have been told about forecasted snow in Sheffield this weekend. Back Monday all being well.

 

[VicBlazey]

Sophie Corcoran
@sophcorcoran
·
45s
No verdict reached today. Jurors have been told about forecasted snow in Sheffield this weekend. Back Monday all being well.

More waiting for Libby's family, let's hope that they can resume safely on Monday.

 

[Financejane]

@Financejane

I think this might be the link
Libby Squire trial CCTV

Thank you that’s so kind of you to link it. I feel very lazy!

Is it a bit weird that my only thoughts were how surprised I was that he indicated when turning back onto Beverley Road towards Haworth pub? Like he still did all the right things driving wise. I don’t know why I think he wouldn’t

 

[JosieJo]

Awful for the family..I really thought there would be a verdict today

 

[jamjim]

Sophie Corcoran
@sophcorcoran
·
1m
It was just a question whether they could read a witness statement. Nothing came of it.

 

[MsMiniSleuth]

Sophie Corcoran
@sophcorcoran
·
45s
No verdict reached today. Jurors have been told about forecasted snow in Sheffield this weekend. Back Monday all being well.

Yes, unlikely to have been today. It is not a clean cut case to reach a fast, unanimous verdict on. There IS doubt. Both prosecution and defence have strong cases.

 

[Sooty]

Thank you that’s so kind of you to link it. I feel very lazy!

Is it a bit weird that my only thoughts were how surprised I was that he indicated when turning back onto Beverley Road towards Haworth pub? Like he still did all the right things driving wise. I don’t know why I think he wouldn’t

You’re welcome!
It’s interesting I thought, in many ways. Both for what it shows and also what it doesn’t.

 

[tigerowl]

You have mentioned twice that 700m is not far for PR to carry a body. But you also say it is far if Libby is walking it?

Similar to how the park is brightly illuminated by the snow for PR yet dark and scary for LS.

 

[Mommysleuth11]

I expected a verdict to come in quickly and it must be so difficult for her family waiting to find out after the lengthy wait they have already faced.