VERDICT WATCH UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #24

[Ruthbullock]

That's right. I'm heading that way shortly for my daily walk, so I'll take a picture or two.

Thanks for the link to the other photo and that would be great to add a few more. I know you mentioned the bollards, but I believe I read on here they weren’t there in 2019?

 

[Tortoise]

Did he not say they pulled over because she felt sick ..."in theory" you would unbuckle someone's belt quickly for them if you thought they were going to be sick in your car

I thought he was lying about that but it does match with the taxi driver's testimony and it was a story he told the police before knowing what the taxi driver would say -

'Libby was angry but said she was OK' - driver
Mr Moreton said he drove the taxi up Beverley Road towards Wellesley Avenue.

He said: “She was very angry about some lad or something, she did say about somebody ‘he’s a f****** c***.’

“We spoke through the intercom system. She didn’t say who this man was, I didn’t have a clue. I assumed it was a boyfriend or an ex-boyfriend.

“I asked a couple of times she was ok and she said she was fine. I thought I heard a noise that sounded like she was being sick but when we got to her address I jumped out to see and there wasn’t any.”

'Libby killer's 2.30am sex act in Newland Avenue' - trial updates

Relowicz's account to police of what happened
Relowicz then claimed he had been driving Libby in his car while asking her for her address.

He said he ended up in Beresford Avenue and he thought that she was going to be sick and stopped his car by the playing fields where he could drive no further.

 

[Ruthbullock]

Quotes don't seem to be behaving quite right this morning. Here's the location of the green shed (green hoop) relative to the position of the cams (red circles) and PR's probable parking spot (red hoop).

Wider context:

That’s brilliant, thanks (I’m having the same problem with quotes this morning)

 

[Vermont24]

Thanks for the link to the other photo and that would be great to add a few more. I know you mentioned the bollards, but I believe I read on here they weren’t there in 2019?

There's now bollards very near to the point at which Beresford Avenue meets Oak Road, which are relatively new. However, there's been bollards close to PR's parking spot, blocking off Oak Road from traffic between the park and the area shown by the Croda CCTV close to the junction with Clough Road, for as long as I can remember.

 

[Cherwell]

Quotes don't seem to be behaving quite right this morning.

Quotes go wrong when part of the quote code is accidentally deleted.
If you go into edit mode, you should be able to see what's gone wrong, and correct it. It should look like this (but without the spaces)
[ QUOTE ]
[/QUOTE ]
If the quoted post isn't closed properly, or a bracket is missing, it won't appear as a quote.

 

[Vermont24]

Quotes go wrong when part of the quote code is accidentally deleted.
If you go into edit mode, you should be able to see what's gone wrong, and correct it. It should look like this (but without the spaces)
[ QUOTE ]
[/QUOTE ]
If the quote isn't closed properly, or a bracket is missing, it doesn't appear as a quote.

It's leaving the HTML closing tag off all of its own accord today (background as a web editor, amongst other things). Perhaps I quoted a previously broken quote, who knows?

 

[Miss_French]

Yes but they both count as murder.

How, if, by the CPS definition, there is no intent to kill or cause GBH?

You keep.trying to support a guilty vote on murder, but don't quote the full facts to support it, for example, missing out key words such 'possible' or 'suspected' from stated evidence.

 

[Cherwell]

The prosecution's case for murder is PR asphyxiated Libby. This is not, imo, compatible with manslaughter.

I think it would be if he had his hand over her mouth to silence her, applied the pressure too long and too firmly, and did not realise it was killing her.

I think the most realistic scenario is he had his hand over her mouth and pulled her into the park, causing the lacerations inside her mouth.
About 4-5 minutes in, with a non-compliant but defenceless Libby, 12:15/16 when SA heard the first scream, they are sufficiently inside the park (150 metres per SA?) for him to rape her and his hand is off her mouth because he's got his jeans and her clothing to concentrate on. (sorry for graphic details)

This is along the lines of what I was thinking too.

I go back to the judge's summing up -
Manslaughter verdict an option
Justice Lambert has told the jury it has occurred to her manslaughter is an option for the verdict but it has not been explained.
She said: “There is no count of manslaughter on the indictment but it can be returned as an alternative verdict to murder.
“That would arise if you were sure Pawel Relowicz assaulted Libby Squire and it caused her death in the sense it made one or more contributions to her death and whether he intended it to.
"If the answer is no, the verdict will be not guilty of murder but you should consider whether that person intended to cause some harm and then if you are sure of that you will return a guilty verdict of manslaughter."
Libby Squire murder trial updates as jury consider verdict

I submit there might be a bit missing from the reporting before she says "if the answer is no" - along the lines of 'are you sure Libby was asphyxiated by the defendant?'

I don't find that at all clear, and I am sure that the judge must have explained it in more detail but it's been very badly reported.

 

[Steve2021]

Sorry if I've missed this, I haven't been following the minutiae details of this, but do we know where he parked for the 3rd visit? (or did he not park up?). What I'm getting at is that if he did, he'd know the exact path they followed into the park and do whatever he needed to do without having to wander about looking.

If he didn't park up - please ignore my musing!

He did stop best part of 5 mins on his 3rd visit. Not sure where. Fair question to ask what we can infer from quite where he stopped, but I suspect we'll find several equally explainable possibilities and no one clear answer. For example on his 2nd visit you could infer as he parked by the gate he went in the park, but then you could say maybe Libby started walking off and he caught up with her by the shed so had to rape her there.

 

[Cherwell]

It's leaving the HTML closing tag off all of its own accord today (background as a web editor, amongst other things). Perhaps I quoted a previously broken quote, who knows?

Yes, that'll do it.
So easily done, so I usually try to preview before posting, so I can see if anything's gone wrong.

 

[Becky53]

Quotes don't seem to be behaving quite right this morning. Here's the location of the green shed (green hoop) relative to the position of the cams (red circles) and PR's probable parking spot (red hoop).

Wider context:

Does anybody have a link to all the statements PR made and what he has said on the stand?

Seems an odd place to innocently park IMO
Single track road with no turning circle.

 

[Tortoise]

I think it would be if he had his hand over her mouth to silence her, applied the pressure too long and too firmly, and did not realise it was killing her.

Well the judge said whether he intended it to (for manslaughter), so I'm not sure.

 

[tedtink]

Does anybody have a link to all the statements PR made and what he has said on the stand?

Seems an odd place to innocently park IMO
Single track road with no turning circle.

Every word Pawel Relowicz said in Libby Squire murder trial

 

[tedtink]

I think it would be if he had his hand over her mouth to silence her, applied the pressure too long and too firmly, and did not realise it was killing her.

BUT - How many people, putting their hand over someones mouth would NOT realise the consequences that action might have?

 

[Becky53]

Every word Pawel Relowicz said in Libby Squire murder trial

Thanks just found what he said on the stand.

Mr Saxby asked whether Libby did anything that would suggest to Relowicz she liked him sexually to which he has replied “no".

Oak Road playing fields
Relowicz said he stopped the car as Libby "started making sounds like she wanted to vomit."

He said: “Once I stopped she undid her seatbelt and ran off from the car. She went about two metres [towards Oak Road] and there she fell to the ground.

“I got out of the car and approached her and helped her to get up. She was making a sound as if she would be sick. I helped her by way of grabbing hold of both of her arms and she got up. She was facing me.

So correct me if I’m wrong but is he saying he didn’t park on Oak Rd where we all think he parked.
From CCTV footage, picture and google maps it looks about right to me. IMO

 

[tedtink]

Oak Road playing fields
Relowicz said he stopped the car as Libby "started making sounds like she wanted to vomit."

Sounds like PR has 'borrowed' that line from the taxi driver's statement.
There's a pattern to his lies.
MOO

 

[Tortoise]

Sounds like PR has 'borrowed' that line from the taxi driver's statement.
There's a pattern to his lies.
MOO

He said it in his first police interview. Was the taxi driver's statement reported at that stage in the media?

 

[Becky53]

He said it in his first police interview. Was the taxi driver's statement reported at that stage in the media?

This is what PR is saying on the stand when Mr Saxby is leading him.
He also said it in his 1st statement IIRC

Odd place to stop because she is going to vomit - right where he can go no further

Edited to add extra

 

[Cherwell]

Well the judge said whether he intended it to (for manslaughter), so I'm not sure.

As I said, I find the judge's guidance as reported quite muddled, and I don't think it's been faithfully and accurately reported.

BUT - How many people, putting their hand over someones mouth would NOT realise the consequences that action might have?

More than we might think, I suspect, especially when adrenaline is running high.

 

[Newthoughts]

Newthoughts, I am interested in everyone's point of view on here but it is absolutely impossible to have a reasonable discussion with you. Between your assumptions that you state as fact and your confrontational responses we get nowhere. I think it's best that we don't engage anymore.

Very best of luck to you and let's hope we both get the justice we want for Libby and her family.

And I am thinking exactly the same about you.

All the evidence has to be considered