GUILTY UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #25

[Dotta]

This would be enough for me to infer there was mud, everywhere else may have been frozen except the riverbank. Even the lake/pond was frozen solid..........

"Brian Thornton says he saw Relowicz cleaning his car on February 1.
He said: “I saw him cleaning his car mats on the pavements with a brush or washing mats. He looked up, unlocked the car, turned the engine on, cleaned the windows and was still doing the mats.
“I only saw him for seconds, I just looked as I was walking down the streets. I didn’t take any particular notice, I had no need to.”
Mr Thornton said he recognised Relowicz as a neighbour. He says: “He had a vacuum cleaner.
“There were two thoughts that came to mind: 1 - it was a bitterly cold day, not one you associate with cleaning a car. 2 - He was lucky to get his car close enough to plug the vacuum cleaner in.”
Mr Thornton has told the court he has never seen Relowicz clean his car before. He says it was around 1.30pm"

Pawel Relowicz told police he 'wanted Libby to be found' - trial

But then Defence said that PR's car wasn't there where witness claimed. It was round the corner according cctv. But we already talked about this on previous thread.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Oh I know it did, but if he attacked her by the river- how did he get her there quickly? Did she willingly go to the river, or did he carry her but she only started screaming once they arrived at the river(there’s no way he could carry someone who’s 5’7” and stop them screaming)? I’m just curious as it doesn’t raise any questions to me, but it obviously does to lots of other people, so I’m now trying to imagine some of the possible thoughts being thrown around the jury room with regards that.

Now that I don’t know. Told her it was a shortcut to her house? Being a gent and walking her home safely? Kind of marched / coerced her there in her drunken state? We’ll never find out, sadly.

I wonder if there was any forensic evidence to back up the shed story. Or if anything came of the park bench forensics.

 

[Ruthbullock]

Now that I don’t know. Told her it was a shortcut to her house? Being a gent and walking her home safely? Kind of marched / coerced her there in her drunken state? We’ll never find out, sadly.

I wonder if there was any forensic evidence to back up the shed story. Or if anything came of the park bench forensics.

Then I come full circle to the other end and that is would the two minutes be enough time to coerce her there willingly- most people think it would be a push to walk it in two minutes. Honestly every time I agree with a theory, I make myself dizzy asking questions I hadn’t previously thought about.

 

[Deleted member 239019]

People saying 7.5 mins isnt enough to rape and murder someone?

1) he probably lasted a minute.
2) he probably held her mouth closed whilst rape was happening?

How is there not enough time?
You all know the playing fields isnt as big as google maps portrays it to be right?

 

[Cherwell]

It was reported none came forward though which is quite telling (why report it otherwise) IMO - they appealed for witnesses previously and this became a news article as they couldn’t identify them. The key CCTV which could hold clues to Libby's homicide investigation
ETA the above link is over a month after the original appeal which was shown on every major news channel and online site available including sky and the sun.
ETA we also don’t know that the defence didn’t bring up the fact other males were wandering around during that time period alone in the vicinity. Not sure the three minutes that would have taken would warrant a type up in the daily reporting.

Well, yes, it was a renewed appeal, but we don't actually know for sure that nobody responded subsequently.
It was discussed quite a lot at the time, why people might not have come forward.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Then I come full circle to the other end and that is would the two minutes be enough time to coerce her there willingly- most people think it would be a push to walk it in two minutes. Honestly every time I agree with a theory, I make myself dizzy asking questions I hadn’t previously thought about.

LOL same here. That’s my today theory and I’ve convinced myself it fits. Is the 7.5 minutes long enough to get her into the park, rape her and leave her struggling to breathe on the snowy ground .... and the 4.5 minutes long enough for him to run up to where he left her, put her in the river and run back? I reckon just about.

We really need a local to time the distance from gate to river, both at walking pace and running.

@Vermont24 what you doing tonight?

 

[Happygirlie2003]

Is it a possibility Libby conked out in the car and PR carried her and the screaming was when she woke up realising what he was up to? Just MO because he could get further quicker without her protest

 

[Ruthbullock]

Is it a possibility Libby conked out in the car and PR carried her and the screaming was when she woke up realising what he was up to? Just MO because he could get further quicker without her protest

No as we saw two people get out of the car on the CCTV- and it only showed feet on the ground

 

[Luwin]

Oh I know it did, but if he attacked her by the river- how did he get her there quickly? Did she willingly go to the river, or did he carry her but she only started screaming once they arrived at the river(there’s no way he could carry someone who’s 5’7” and stop them screaming)? I’m just curious as it didn’t raise any questions to me, but it obviously does to lots of other people, so I’m now trying to imagine some of the possible thoughts being thrown around the jury room with regards that.

Could she have been passed out? He could have carried her in her unconscious state and the screams were her waking and the realisation of her situation

 

[Dotta]

I am afraid Vermont will arise suspicions wandering in the park all the time taking pictures and spying on CCTV cameras

 

[NottReds50]

No as we saw two people get out of the car on the CCTV- and it only showed feet on the ground

What CCTV shows them getting out the car please?

 

[C.greek]

No as we saw two people get out of the car on the CCTV- and it only showed feet on the ground

That's a new one for me. Did we actually see feet on the ground on the cctv?

 

[ChiCubs2016]

Is it a possibility Libby conked out in the car and PR carried her and the screaming was when she woke up realising what he was up to? Just MO because he could get further quicker without her protest

This is something I have actually considered in my mind. And I think another poster may have wondered as well. Libby was drunk and probably tired. Would the warm car put her to sleep? I know if I am out late in a cold night and not the driver, I can fall fast asleep quickly. But I am not drunk so not sure if it would be the same. MOO

 

[NottReds50]

This is something I have actually considered in my mind. And I think another poster may have wondered as well. Libby was drunk and probably tired. Would the warm car put her to sleep? I know if I am out late in a cold night and not the driver, I can fall fast asleep quickly. But I am not drunk so not sure if it would be the same. MOO

Yes, happened to me several times in taxis etc, so there is a definitely a possibility that this could have happened to Libby

 

[MsMiniSleuth]

Timings do not add up, defence claims

Mr Saxby refers to the evidence on neighbour Hannah Durkin who says she heard screams at 12.30am on February 1, 2019.

He said: "She [Hannah Durkin] did remember when she last checked her phone it was 12.30am. Sam Alford had real problems.

"To me, if Sam Alford was wrong about the times and when he checked the phone, the answer is straight forward - they were hearing the same thing at the same time and the screams happened later.

"If there were two sets of screams one at around 12.15am and another at 12.30am you will need to consider whether they were from different people. No - consider there the likelihood of two women on the playing fields screaming and panicking intermittently - it’s pretty unlikely isn’t it.

“If it was the same person then Libby Squire was still alive at 12.30am and Pawel Relowicz could not have killed her."


Libby Squire's death 'may have been suicide' says Relowicz defence

 

[C.greek]

But then Defence said that PR's car wasn't there where witness claimed. It was round the corner according cctv. But we already talked about this on previous thread.

Not sure what we got out of that. We got just a snippet from defence questioning the witness. I am not even sure we got it right. So for me I still go with the witness statement.

 

[Alyce]

Not sure what we got out of that. We got just a snippet from defence questioning the witness. I am not even sure we got it right. So for me I still go with the witness statement.

yes me too. The witness knew the defendant and knew what day and time it was when he saw pr.

 

[MsMiniSleuth]

Not sure what we got out of that. We got just a snippet from defence questioning the witness. I am not even sure we got it right. So for me I still go with the witness statement.

That it was not PR cleaning his car that morning BT saw trying to remove all traces of the previous night...? That BT was mistaken in thinking it was PR...?

 

[C.greek]

Timings do not add up, defence claims

Mr Saxby refers to the evidence on neighbour Hannah Durkin who says she heard screams at 12.30am on February 1, 2019.

He said: "She [Hannah Durkin] did remember when she last checked her phone it was 12.30am. Sam Alford had real problems.

"To me, if Sam Alford was wrong about the times and when he checked the phone, the answer is straight forward - they were hearing the same thing at the same time and the screams happened later.

"If there were two sets of screams one at around 12.15am and another at 12.30am you will need to consider whether they were from different people. No - consider there the likelihood of two women on the playing fields screaming and panicking intermittently - it’s pretty unlikely isn’t it.

“If it was the same person then Libby Squire was still alive at 12.30am and Pawel Relowicz could not have killed her."


Libby Squire's death 'may have been suicide' says Relowicz defence

The key phrase here is last checked her phone. Whereas SA checked his phone when he woke up. From the above, it appears that neither the defence nor the prosecution disregard the screams as being foxes. It is terribly surreal to imagine Libby screaming after the rape on her own in the park. I go with the probabilities that the two student witnesses miscalculated the time. In their first statement, they had said around 12 30. So for me the key evidence remains still that a man was seen walking out of the park after the screams were heard.

 

[Ruthbullock]

That's a new one for me. Did we actually see feet on the ground on the cctv?

Yes in the very top right corner with arrows- I’m no good at finding and linking posts in previous threads- can someone else have a look and link please