GUILTY UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #25

[JosieJo]

I'm so surprised a majority wasn't offered at lunchtime

 

[JosieJo]

To me this sounds like someone who is in a hurry but doesn't want to draw attention to himself.

To be honest...who wouldn't walk quickly through a park at night when freezing cold ..

 

[MsMiniSleuth]

I'm so surprised a majority wasn't offered at lunchtime

Really? You think that clear cut? I would disagree.

 

[NorthernSoul]

Has anyone in this group ever been in a Jury? I know you can't discuss case details but I wondered if anyone had been in the situation above, before?

I've done Jury service twice. I fully expected the Jury would be out on this case for several days as they have multiple charges to consider and a lot of evidence to talk through as well as this case being nowhere near as clear-cut as some are due to the evidence here being circumstantial. I've experienced situations where people on the Jury have conflicting views and can't agree on a verdict but not to the point of going to a majority. If the Jury are not all in agreement they will basically have to narrow down the areas of disagreement then look at these areas from both points of view in detail and see whether this clarifies matters or changes anyone's mind. The Jury could be completely split or it literally could be just one person who is unwilling to budge. People are entirely within their rights to stick to their opinion if nothing they hear dissuades them. To me, if a case is watertight, it becomes difficult for any one person to do this because the other Jurors will inevitably be able to point out to them something they have missed or are not taking into consideration. When there are weaknesses in the prosecution case, as I believe there are here in the murder charge, and the verdict relies more on probability than cold hard facts you are more likely to get people disagreeing as we have on this forum. I still think it's entirely possible they will emerge with a guilty of murder verdict but for this to happen every single Juror will have to believe that PR is guilty of murder beyond all reasonable doubt. This is why I have been dubious all along; not that he likely did it but that they had enough evidence to find him guilty of murder. The Jury know much more than we do and whatever decision they make I am sure will be the correct one.

 

[JosieJo]

7.5 mins may be a worry to the jury ...its difficult to do everything in time if running ...but if walking ? More so

 

[Catsarse]

I said before, if I were on the jury I would be uneasy about SA's version and timings, and how it differs timewise from the later alleged cries heard by the other two witnesses which the defence placed credence on and the prosecution dismissed. That's me on the jury there sending notes!

I feel exactly the same. Regardless my emotions and personal feelings now, after two years and following on here, I’d want to dissect EVERYTHING in regards to prosecution and defence statements.

If I’m going to find someone guilty then I’d want to be as sure as I ever could be I’m making the best, informed decision.
It’s a lot on their shoulders

 

[JosieJo]

Really? You think that clear cut? I would disagree.

I've never followed a case that has deliberated for this long ...I realise there is a lot of evidence but surely they must be going over the same points now. Im not saying its a bad thing , just surprised the judge didn't consider it today

 

[Miss_French]

14:54
Jury asked for witness statement to be read out

The judge has been called back in to re-read the statment of SA at the request of the jury..

He was the man who lived in a house just next to Oak Road playing fields who heard a woman screaming and then saw a man hurrying away from the park.

Justice Lambert told the jury: “He [SA] says he recalled speaking to police about screams he had heard and the individual he had seen afterwards.

"The events were fresh when he gave his first statement and he was referring to something he heard on February 1, 2019.

"He woke up looked at his phone and said it was about a minute after he looked at his phone he heard a scream. He looked at his phone and it was 12.14am.

"His partner had texted him so he checked the text on his phone and he didn’t know what caused him to wake up. He said when he was awake a minute or two when he heard the screams.

"He said the screams were far away but loud enough to reach his window, around 150 metres away.

"He said ‘in the direction north from my bedroom.’ He said there was a track and a bit of woodland and the river running around the back.

"He was asked some questions about the screams and said the first two were intermittent with 30 seconds or ones minute between and wondered what it was.

"It was the second that got him thinking they had a pattern. He talked about the pattern of life living there teenagers drinking in the park and girls screaming behaviour he intended to ignore.

"He heard the screams again and couldn’t see anything. He said they were human from a woman and said they were enough to think ‘what could they be'.

He said 'they portrayed to me desperation and continued for three to five minutes, three to seven, I can only give you an estimation probably four to seven minutes. I went to the toilet and came back and looked out the window and they had stopped'.

He knelt on his bed and looked out the window. He said it was more he couldn’t see and after around three to five minutes he saw a man walking along the path. It was a man walking along in a manner he described as assertive, not looking behind and knowing where he wanted to go.

"He said he was heading straight forward before he left his vision. He was asked about a police statement he gave in February 4 and said he told the truth at the time.

"He said he had never seen the man running off. He described him as moving as if he wanted to get out of there.

"He had said he wanted to get out of the park and was walking with urgency and moving with a purpose to get off the park. As for the clothing being worn by the man he described joggers or jeans and some sort of hooded jacket.”

Libby Squire murder trial updates as jury out for fourth day

Screams about a minute/minute or two after SA woke up, lasting 3 to 5/3 to 7 minutes and a walking man in a hooded (not bomber) jacket.

I don't know about PR's 5 versions, how many have we read of this. Just goes to show!

 

[VicBlazey]

I have to do jury service in April. Absolutely not looking forward to it and definitely hope it's nothing of this magnitude.

 

[Zazie]

You can't and I can't but, there are definitely still average people on the street who think that if a woman is drunk then it's not rape its 'her asking for trouble'. Let's hope there's not one if those on the jury!

There were some uncomfortable phrases from the defence about Libby's being "indifferent to her own safety" and "reckless of her own safety", which were relayed in the context of possible suicide yet seemed to me as if they might also function as dog whistles about that attitude.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I have to do jury service in April. Absolutely not looking forward to it and definitely hope it's nothing of this magnitude.

I’d love to do it for the experience and finding out how things work in court, the logistics will be fascinating! But yeah, you wouldn’t really want a harrowing case like this...please let us know how you get on, after the event.

 

[Steve2021]

Just reading above what the judge has read out my first thought is SAs evidence is next to useless.

So according to him he heard the 1st scream at 12.15.

1. Does anyone accept the possibility another woman was being attacked near the river while Libby was being raped by the road, or is that too remote to consider?
2. Or although he clear says it was a female, is anyone prepared to discount that and conclude it was a fox?
3. So if it was Libby how did she get there AND get there so fast... remember she only got out the car 12.11/12.12 and that while his window might only be 150m from the source of the scream (if he's talking of a track and woodland as to being where they were from that's surely an underestimate), but his window is nearer to it than the road?
4. At a minimum the screams lasted 3 minutes taking us to 12.18 and 3 minutes plus a toilet break later he saw a man walking, taking us to 12.21 at the earliest.
5. Who the hell is this man?
6. Did PRs camo jacket seen on the Tesco and Berresford CCTV have a hood?

 

[Lyall0814]

7.5 mins may be a worry to the jury ...its difficult to do everything in time if running ...but if walking ? More so

But it doesn't have to fit into 7.5 mins if he went back later. This timeline is an artificial one

 

[VicBlazey]

I’d love to do it for the experience and finding out how things work in court, the logistics will be fascinating! But yeah, you wouldn’t really want a harrowing case like this...please let us know how you get on, after the event.

Will do. I imagine it's going to be quite different to other people's experiences due to COVID restrictions too. I should have done it last year but it ended up being postponed. I'll report back for sure!

 

[Winterbells]

I think what the judge said to the jury about speculation vs inference was very interesting. Having googled the difference, it seems to come up a lot when juries are given guidelines by the judge. This article is worth reading: Ten questions posed by Vicky Pryce jury

 

[RobinCAL]

I’d love to do it for the experience and finding out how things work in court, the logistics will be fascinating! But yeah, you wouldn’t really want a harrowing case like this...please let us know how you get on, after the event.

I got my jury duty just after my 18th Birthday and it really is the most fascinating experience, which I would love to do again. But the cases are difficult most of the time in so many ways.

 

[NorthernSoul]

Will do. I imagine it's going to be quite different to other people's experiences due to COVID restrictions too. I should have done it last year but it ended up being postponed. I'll report back for sure!

If it's any help, lots of us were nervous on attending but it turned out to be a fascinating experience and I don't think there was anybody who regretted having been called up by the end. In fact I remember some people enquiring about how to become a court Usher because they wanted to stay!

 

[Becky53]

Just reading above what the judge has read out my first thought is SAs evidence is next to useless.

So according to him he heard the 1st scream at 12.15.

1. Does anyone accept the possibility another woman was being attacked near the river while Libby was being raped by the road, or is that too remote to consider?
2. Or although he clear says it was a female, is anyone prepared to discount that and conclude it was a fox?
3. So if it was Libby how did she get there AND get there so fast... remember she only got out the car 12.11/12.12 and that while his window might only be 150m from the source of the scream (if he's taking of a track and woodland as to being where they were from that's an underestimate), but his window is nearer to it than the road?
4. At a minimum the screams lasted 3 minutes taking us to 12.18 and 3 minutes plus a toilet break later he saw a man walking, taking us to 12.21 at the earliest.
5. Who the hell is this man?
6. Did PRs camo jacket seen on the Tesco and Berresford CCTV have a hood?

The cami jacket on McDonalds CCTV certainly does from 2 days after...

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13808689/resident-heard-libby-squires-desperate-screams/

 

[JosieJo]

But it doesn't have to fit into 7.5 mins if he went back later. This timeline is an artificial one

To get out of car ..somehow get a woman far enough into the park whilst likely struggling, rape and walk back has to though ..imo even that is tight.

The second visit is also tight ...just over 4 min ..the running time is 2 min each way at best ..without having to pick up a body and get them in the river
Both visits are so tight they are questionable

 

[bos]

DBM quotes and reply a mess!