GUILTY UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #25

[Alyce]

So 2 hours since the majority direction and still no verdict. This doesn't feel good, her family must be beside themselves.

My only consoling feeling is that if he is convicted of the rape alone, of which I personally have no doubts on, the Judge will surely throw the book at him (did someone post maximum sentence 19 years to life imprisonment?), due to the aggravating factors and the fact she never returned home through either direct or indirect consequence of his actions.
I don't believe he will be a free man for many many years, if ever but understandably this may not feel like enough for her family. All moo

I agree. It won't feel like nearly enough for me. He is the reason Libby is dead.

I am not sure what sentence the Judge could give if he is only found guilty of rape. Too high and there will inevitably be an appeal.

 

[Fidobell]

Innocent until proven guilty is a common phrase but, also a not guilty verdict doesn't mean that a person did not commit the crime of which they're accused... it merely means that there wasn't enough evidence to prove it.

In Scotland they have an alternative verdict of 'Not proven' which means that the jury thinks they're guilty but, it can't be proven by evidence alone.

Interesting

Not proven here in Scotland is a cop out . Means the accused is free to go never can be tried again . Outdated law that is to this day is needing removed from our justice system . Google, Amanda Duffy Murdered . Accused Francis Auld .
Still makes my blood boil .

 

[Alyce]

Is this wrong too seven men and five women? I thought it was the other way around...

The jury were sent out to decide whether Relowicz, 26, is guilty of the rape and murder of University of Hull student Libby Squire on Thursday last week.

Now, after six days of deliberations at Sheffield Crown Court, the jury - made up of seven men and five women - seem no closer to reaching a verdict.

Libby Squire murder trial: Why jury can reach a majority verdict

Yes, definitely it was 7 women and 5 men

Poor Sophie, she sounds as nervous as most of us on here are today

 

[MsMiniSleuth]

If this goes past 4pm, you can surmise there are at least 3 jurors not budging.

I was reading a Peter James novel last year - his last in the Roy Grace series, if you are familiar - and Peter always does thorough research. This one concerned jurors being nobbled, which is not why I mention it, but because it takes you through a court case from one of the juror's point of view. You see how hard it is in this fictional story to get all 12 to agree, and how there are some who want to tie the case up and get done, while a few will not be swayed from their verdict.

 

[Cherwell]

If this goes past 4pm, you can surmise there are at least 3 jurors not budging.

I was reading a Peter James novel last year - his last in the Roy Grace series, if you are familiar - and Peter always does thorough research. This one concerned jurors being nobbled, which is not why I mention it, but because it takes you through a court case from one of the juror's points of view. You see how, as in this fictional story, how hard it is to get all 12 to agree, and how there are some who want to tie the case up and get done, while a few will not be swayed from their verdict.

Or watch Henry Fonda pull it off in "Twelve Angry Men".

 

[Alyce]

It might have been just one juror all along, we'll see. I think we'll know by 4 or thereabouts.

I tend to think it is more than 2 jurors who have an opposing view to the others. If it were only 1 or 2, we would have the verdict in by now

MOO of course

 

[Mommysleuth11]

I wouldn't find that a comfort if it were me. The man who murdered my child getting away with murder no matter how strict the sentence. IMO.

With good behaviour he'd be out in time to do it again. 17 - 18 years.

I can't honestly see where the doubt is.

I was talking about my personal feelings, not assuming those of her family.

I did attempt to acknowledge that her family will likely feel very differently but its impossible (for me) to say how they feel or what their thoughts may be.

Sorry if you find my thoughts offensive, that wasn't the intention and I tried to be as sensitive as I could in my wording.

 

[jamjim]

I tend to think it is more than 2 jurors who have an opposing view to the others. If it were only 1 or 2, we would have the verdict in by now

MOO of course

Same here Alyce.

 

[bos]

I know the prosecution can’t compel a spouse to testify in court but can anybody tell me whether the police would interview a spouse (knowing it would be inadmissible in court)anyway?
E.g. in this case asking when she noticed the scratches on his face, what was his explanation for them,what were his movements on night of 31st Jan/1st Feb?

 

[Mommysleuth11]

For me I wish there had been one more piece of evidence to close the deal
Just some blood on his clothes ?
Some Internet searches on bodies in rivers?
Previous violence ?
A liking for auto asphyxiation ?
The sort of things in other cases that tip the balance

Exactly this, or even a few more minutes might have 'helped' me be sure.

 

[Lyall0814]

I tend to think it is more than 2 jurors who have an opposing view to the others. If it were only 1 or 2, we would have the verdict in by now

MOO of course

If I was in that room I'd say wait until after lunch. "It's warmer in here than it is out there"

 

[Scorpiette]

For me I wish there had been one more piece of evidence to close the deal
Just some blood on his clothes ?
Some Internet searches on bodies in rivers?
Previous violence ?
A liking for auto asphyxiation ?
The sort of things in other cases that tip the balance

Yes, I'm surprised there have been no 'character' references from either side. I'm amazed his wife hasn't been called for her account of that night, with PR's comings and goings, bath and washing clothes etc. How long he was off work for, and why?

 

[elliefant]

For all we know it could be the guilty voters who are in the minority holding out. They might prefer to see him retried than found not guilty.

 

[Newthoughts]

The prosecution version gives us the guidance...they have put him at the rear of the park by the witness SA ... its not a case of choosing one sides version...its for the prosecution to prove his guilt. For me they have proven up to the point of rape at the river end of the park ...just because for me they haven't proved beyond that does not mean I have to go back to the starting point of Oak rd

What do you feel the jury are struggling with ? Because obviously they are ..even taking into account the complexity of the case deliberations are very lengthy

For example in April jones case ...4hrs
Joanna Yates ..2 days
Most cases are much quicker ...no way is this just carefully going through info ..they are struggling

If I'm really honest I don't know what the jury are struggling with. I don't understand the doubts at all because they seem to focus solely one bit of evidence.

The choices are murder because he's close enough to the river or misadventure because he's close to the river.

Or believe his defence and misadventure from outside the park.

If he's taken her close to the river why leave all that evidence? Makes no sense at all. And it's another convenient PR protecting lie.

We now know he has impulse control because we know he didn't act immediately he saw Libby. Yet he risks going out again after a rape. He's not stupid

We know he lies to suit..

 

[Officer Dibble]

Yes, sadly there is no other choice - it will be a hung jury and - if CPS decide to - they will have another trial.

and a fresh jury I presume?

 

[Officer Dibble]

If I'm really honest I don't know what the jury are struggling with. I don't understand the doubts at all because they seem to focus solely one bit of evidence.

The choices are murder because he's close enough to the river or misadventure because he's close to the river.

Or believe his defence and misadventure from outside the park.

If he's taken her close to the river why leave all that evidence? Makes no sense at all. And it's another convenient PR protecting lie.

We now know he has impulse control because we know he didn't act immediately he saw Libby. Yet he risks going out again after a rape. He's not stupid

We know he lies to suit..

I guess you only need a few stubborn extremely opinionated or extremely liberal people in a group to cause an issue. JMO

 

[ChiCubs2016]

No verdict update yet

11:51
No reaction from Pawel Relowicz

Pawel Relowicz did not react to the news a majority verdict will be accepted.

Our reporter at court Sophie Corcoran said: "He was just emotionless and stoic as he has been throughout much of the trial."

Libby Squire trial live as judge tells jury she will accept majority verdicts

I am curious about how he will react to any guilty verdict. We know he had a temper when he was sentenced for his previous crimes. MOO

 

[kate2931]

For me I wish there had been one more piece of evidence to close the deal
Just some blood on his clothes ?
Some Internet searches on bodies in rivers?
Previous violence ?
A liking for auto asphyxiation ?
The sort of things in other cases that tip the balance

I agree. I completely believe he is guilty, but just one of the things you’ve listed could have been what an unsure juror/s really needed to reach a murder verdict.

I imagined more complex evidence would have been presented by the prosecution, did the police not do thorough enough leg work ? I’m convinced he must have awful internet searches relating to asphyxiation and rape at the very least.

Really didn’t expect the trial to remind me of how ‘basic’ Lindsay Birbeck’s was. Although the outcome there was guilty.


whatever the outcome now, I’m still hoping the judge will give him life on the rape charge. In this country, we know a murder sentence can still mean very little in terms of serving time.

 

[MsMiniSleuth]

I tend to think it is more than 2 jurors who have an opposing view to the others. If it were only 1 or 2, we would have the verdict in by now

MOO of course

Of course, we don't know what is going on in the jurors' room. For example, most may be agreeing on rape, while they cannot decide on whether the second count was murder or manslaughter. Or vice versa.

 

[kate2931]

I guess you only need a few stubborn extremely opinionated or extremely liberal people in a group to cause an issue. JMO

Absolutely, I think of a few people I know and if they were ever to serve on a jury ...yikes