UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #20

[Newthoughts]

His estimate of 30 mins before unconscious is based purely on hypothermia...was she already hypoxic because of the attack ? Was she unconscious before hitting the river ?? So many variables ...will be interesting to see if the defence call any expert witnesses of their own ..this was a prosecution witness and although cant lie their wording and stance will be in favour or the prosecution

They may not bring any more witnesses who knows ? But interested to find out

If she was unconscious before hitting the river that's murder. Unconscious people don't stumble into rivers

 

[JosieJo]

If she was unconscious before hitting the river that's murder. Unconscious people don't stumble into rivers

No of course I agree ...just an example of how that particular witness evidence was only based on hypothermia as a condition not the other elements

 

[Newthoughts]

I agree. But I'm just saying... that's how it's meant to be - that's how a fair trial is supposed to work. I'm amazed his previous convictions have been revealed. I read something somewhere about this once (can't remember the exact details) but it seems that previous stuff is allowed if both sides agree to reveal it and if it demonstrates 'bad character'. I can't imagine why his defence would allow it, unless their intention is to hammer home the point that he's 'just' a petty thief who likes to shock women with his masturbating activities, rather than a murderous rapist.

Perhaps someone legal could answer but could it be that the judge has to allow it as admissable? The defence may have objected but it is relevant. It shows a man that has been offending for a while for starters. One who likes to terrorise women. One who wouldn't try to kindly take a crying girl home.

 

[Newthoughts]

No of course I agree ...just an example of how that particular witness evidence was only based on hypothermia as a condition not the other elements

Yes and that evidence was based on someone entering the water from standing. That is conscious and therefore going to drown.

If unconscious it is murder.

 

[Winterbells]

Bad Character Evidence | The Crown Prosecution Service

 

[JosieJo]

Yes and that evidence was based on someone entering the water from standing. That is conscious and therefore going to drown.

If unconscious it is murder.

in theory standing isn't the only variant though

Was she crawling ? Had she already got reduced oxygen levels because of the attack? Had she lay in the snow for a while having previously passed out ...thats all I mean by variables

 

[Winterbells]

Here's a summary:
“In criminal proceedings evidence of the defendant’s bad character is admissible if, but only if –

1. all parties to the proceedings agree to the evidence being admissible;
2. the evidence is adduced by the defendant himself or is given in answer to a question asked by him in cross examination and intended to elicit it;
3. it is important explanatory evidence;
4. it is relevant to an important matter in issue between the defendant and the prosecution;
5. it has substantial probative value in relation to an important matter in issue between the defendant and a co-defendant;
6. it is evidence to correct a false impression given by the defendant; or
7. the defendant has made an attack on another person’s character.
   
   Bad Character Evidence | The Crown Prosecution Service

 

[Vera_dci]

Why you feel empathy for me ??
I just share my point view ,my "visions "are no better or worst than yours
We don't know if he thrown her in the river,there is no hard evidence of that
And exactly if there is not big signs of drowning she could walk to the river on her own and lie down in the water on the riverside and slowly die there from cold then river rise and took her body away (btw there wasn't any shoe print on the ground?)

This website is for different view points to be discussed.

Why would she choose to die slowly though? If she placed herself in the water to die, wouldn't you expect her to drown herself? If I wanted to commit suicide I would do it the quickest way possible. If I intended to drown myself I would breathe in as much water as possible . This would have been clearly evident on any post mortem. But it wasn't?!

 

[Winterbells]

in theory standing isn't the only variant though

Was she crawling ? Had she already got reduced oxygen levels because of the attack? Had she lay in the snow for a while having previously passed out ...thats all I mean by variables

Odd that PR wanted to plant the idea of Libby being on her knees at some point. Don't know why I'm bringing this up in relation to this particular part of the discussion, but it just popped into my head when I read your post.

 

[Newthoughts]

in theory standing isn't the only variant though

Was she crawling ? Had she already got reduced oxygen levels because of the attack? Had she lay in the snow for a while having previously passed out ...thats all I mean by variables

I think standing means all forms of consciousness.

All the variables you mention are all as a result of his attack on her and at the start didn't the prosecution say that death as result of the attack counted.

 

[Ktboo]

I wonder why the bouncer that refused to let her into Welly hasn’t had his statement read in court

 

[Skigh]

Here's a summary:
“In criminal proceedings evidence of the defendant’s bad character is admissible if, but only if –

1. all parties to the proceedings agree to the evidence being admissible;
2. the evidence is adduced by the defendant himself or is given in answer to a question asked by him in cross examination and intended to elicit it;
3. it is important explanatory evidence;
4. it is relevant to an important matter in issue between the defendant and the prosecution;
5. it has substantial probative value in relation to an important matter in issue between the defendant and a co-defendant;
6. it is evidence to correct a false impression given by the defendant; or
7. the defendant has made an attack on another person’s character.
   
   Bad Character Evidence | The Crown Prosecution Service

So looking at 7,if PR has made negative comments about Libby's character,the prosecution can give evidence about his unsavoury character.

 

[astheworldfallsdown]

Odd that PR wanted to plant the idea of Libby being on her knees at some point. Don't know why I'm bringing this up in relation to this particular part of the discussion, but it just popped into my head when I read your post.

I've wondered if maybe he thinks someone saw them at this stage?

 

[JusticeDT]

Odd that PR wanted to plant the idea of Libby being on her knees at some point. Don't know why I'm bringing this up in relation to this particular part of the discussion, but it just popped into my head when I read your post.

I'm not sure if this will form part of his current version of events or whether this was part of his previous version of events?

 

[Skigh]

I wonder why the bouncer that refused to let her into Welly hasn’t had his statement read in court

I do not see why that would be needed.

 

[Winterbells]

I've wondered if maybe he thinks someone saw them at this stage?

I agree.

 

[Winterbells]

So looking at 7,if PR has made negative comments about Libby's character,the prosecution can give evidence about his unsavoury character.

I can't work out if all 7 points have to be met, or just one of them. (I can't remember the negative comments PR has made about Libby's character though?)

edited: sorry, I misread you post. You said 'if' PR has made...

 

[LucyRocket]

Is there any cctv footage released of his activities later on. I want to know more about him standing facing the wall. Its very odd behaviour.

I can't picture what 'hugging walls' looks like

 

[Winterbells]

I can't picture what 'hugging walls' looks like

I think it means walking very close to the wall/s, shielded from view by the shadows.

 

[Vera_dci]

Hugging a wall - Google Search

@LucyRocket this is what I imagine it is. I think he did this to avoid being seen by either libby or someone else . Its the comment about him standing facing the wall after attacking libby that im confused about. What the hell was he doing?!