UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #22

[JosieJo]

The similarities in the scream witnesses

Both said intermittent

Both indicated the same area of the park

Both witnesses stopped at the time and wondered what it was

Both concerned enough to phone police very early on hearing a student was missing

The couples testimony timings say around 12.30 .... Sams testimony (based on 4 to 7 mins..) tells us she could still be screaming at 12.23.. .. imo so likely to be the same screams..but makes her likely alive when he left at 12.19hrs

Its madness to think these screams were not connected..we are expected to believe that a couple of minutes later there just happened to be a fox screaming like a human?
No fox heard by Sam yet he went to toilet came back and looked out of the window?

 

[Cherwell]

We don't always consciously hear a sound that wakes us, so theoretically it could have been a scream that woke Sam.

 

[Winterbells]

yip, i still remember the first time i heard foxes when i moved house, it was horrific, i thought someone was being skinned alive!! i actually went outside to see where it was coming from but soon realised it was animal not human but its a very strange sound the first time you hear it..

Yes, exactly. I couldn't work out what could possibly be causing that sound. It was like nothing I'd ever heard before in my life. I concluded a psychopathic neighbour must have somehow caught a goose and was now torturing it in the street.

 

[ChiCubs2016]

I thought Sam wasn't sure what woke him, did he testify it was a text that woke him? i missed that part.. if thats the case then surely his time is correct, you can't not see the time when you wake and read a text? But then the other witness also said they looked at the time and it was 12.30 so could the screams have been going on for 15/2o mins?? If only the CCTV that picked up the car lights could have been sensitive to noise too.

They said about 12:30. This is where I start to wonder. About 12:30. If you looked at that time, wouldn’t you know the time? 12:28, 12:32? Now maybe if it was months after you heard screams and had to report to the police but just a day or a few days later? Or I am just a nut that remembers exact times. I do not doubt the couple heard screams. I am just curious about the time. MOO

 

[Sooty]

The similarities in the scream witnesses

Both said intermittent

Both indicated the same area of the park

Both actions stopped at the time and wondered what it was

Both concerned enough to phone police very early on hearing a student was missing

The couples testimony timings say around 12.30 .... Sams testimony (based on 4 to 7 mins..) tells us she could still be screaming at 12.23.. .. imo so likely to be the same screams..but makes her likely alive when he left at 12.19hrs

Its madness to think these screams were not connected..we are expected to believe that a couple of minutes later there just happened to be a fox screaming like a human?
No fox heard by Sam yet he went to toilet came back and looked out of the window?

I agree with this @JosieJo

 

[Skigh]

Lets not start the old foxes thread again

I think it is relevant when discussing the witnesses' reports of screams.
Quite a few new posters have joined since those original discussions.

 

[astheworldfallsdown]

They said about 12:30. This is where I start to wonder. About 12:30. If you looked at that time, wouldn’t you know the time? 12:28, 12:32? Now maybe if it was months after you heard scrams and had to report to the police but just a day or a few days later? Or I am just a nut that remembers exact times. I do not doubt the couple heard screams. I am just curious about the time. MOO

I agree, Mr Alford was able to give a definite time. About 12.30 sounds like the time wasn't actually checked. JMO

 

[Newthoughts]

But here we have two witnesses checking the time so the chances of them both being wrong are less.

"Mr Brewster says it was around 12.30am that he heard the scream. He says he checked the time."

"She says it was at around 12.30am that she last checked her phone on February 1."

And Mr Brewster also said he thought it was an animal. Whereas Mr Alford thought it was human.

 

[Cherwell]

Rules about spouses/civil partners being called to testify are here:
Competence and Compellability | The Crown Prosecution Service

Thanks, it's as I thought. Subject to certain conditions, none of which apply here, a spouse can be a prosecution witness against their partner, but cannot be compelled to do so.

 

[bos]

They said about 12:30. This is where I start to wonder. About 12:30. If you looked at that time, wouldn’t you know the time? 12:28, 12:32? Now maybe if it was months after you heard scrams and had to report to the police but just a day or a few days later? Or I am just a nut that remembers exact times. I do not doubt the couple heard screams. I am just curious about the time. MOO

Yes, this sounds much more like a guesstimate to me rather than the specific 12:14

 

[ChiCubs2016]

I agree, Mr Alford was able to give a definite time. About 12.30 sounds like the time wasn't actually checked. JMO

Especially if checked on a phone or cable box. Most have digital rather than analog. MOO

 

[Joolz1975]

I thought they had listed the 3 people they were calling for the defence already? Where is this extra witness coming from?

 

[Winterbells]

The similarities in the scream witnesses

Both said intermittent

Both indicated the same area of the park

Both witnesses stopped at the time and wondered what it was

Both concerned enough to phone police very early on hearing a student was missing

The couples testimony timings say around 12.30 .... Sams testimony (based on 4 to 7 mins..) tells us she could still be screaming at 12.23.. .. imo so likely to be the same screams..but makes her likely alive when he left at 12.19hrs

Its madness to think these screams were not connected..we are expected to believe that a couple of minutes later there just happened to be a fox screaming like a human?
No fox heard by Sam yet he went to toilet came back and looked out of the window?

With respect, I don't think it's madness to imagine that one lot of screaming was Libby and another lot was foxes. Foxes, when they scream, do exactly what you've described; they sound human, they're intermittent and they make people feel the need to call the police. (Once you're used to the sound you tune it out, as Sam Alford may have done). However, I would have thought that the Oak Road foxes would be too spooked by the presence of a rapist and murderer and the screams of his victim to just carry on with their own noisy rituals.

 

[Tortoise]

I think the prosecutor would have been better off attacking the witnesses' credibility on their timings being out, not whether they could have been hearing a fox.

The argument that foxes could have been screaming not many minutes after SA heard screams rather sounds like the prosecutor's argument that at the same time Libby was screaming by the car another female was screaming by the river.

 

[Sooty]

As I understood from the witnesses The 12:30 was when the phone was last checked - hence the use of ‘about 12:30’.
This is the same as Mr Alford saying that he checked his phone at 12:14 and then guesstimated his timings from there.

 

[JosieJo]

Imo these have to be the same screams ..no way was a fox screaming in the same area of the park as sams screams a couple of minutes later ...and why did he not hear them? He was looking out the window at the time

Its a common comment people make if hearing a scream ..."could be a fox" ...

Sam after hearing his screams was still looking to see if a group of students were around? ...do we ignore that he thought it still might be frivolities causing the screams ...yet convince ourselves there was a fox next to libby because one of the couple wondered it was a fox?
Sorry if it sounds sarky but the similarities in the screams make it nigh on impossible they are not connected

 

[JosieJo]

With respect, I don't think it's madness to imagine that one lot of screaming was Libby and another lot was foxes. Foxes, when they scream, do exactly what you've described; they sound human, they're intermittent and they make people feel the need to call the police. (Once you're used to the sound you tune it out, as Sam Alford may have done). However, I would have thought that the Oak Road foxes would be too spooked by the presence of a rapist and murderer and the screams of his victim to just carry on with their own noisy rituals.

I dont mean its madness that a fox can mistaken for human...I absolutely agree ...its that there just happened to be one the same area of the park as libby that Sam didn't hear while looked out the window...thats the "madness" imo

 

[janeh]

Running in jeans? Even if that is what he told his wife she couldn't possibly have believed him. JMO

And running for 3-4 hours in the middle of the night. What reasonable person does that?

 

[Dotta]

Relowicz said: “I just didn’t want police to know I had sex with her, I didn’t want my wife to find out and I didn’t want police to know because I didn’t know if it was illegal or not.”

"I didn’t know if it was illegal or not.” So he's admitting he considered at the time it might be rape? Why would he add this to the end of his answer when he didn't need to? Is he thick?


Pawel Relowicz returns to witness stand as week two of trial ends

Illegal as indecent behaviour in public?

 

[astheworldfallsdown]

Illegal as indecent behaviour in public?

The legalities of his other indecent behaviour in public, that he has since been convicted for, didn't seem to worry him though JMO