UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #22

[JosieJo]

I'm confused now. I thought he was back home at 2.22am.

12.22 I think

 

[Winterbells]

Back home at 12.22. Out again at 2.25. And off and up to his old tricks by 2.30.

And if 2.25 is 2.25.00 and 2.30 is 2.30.59 the time back at the park goes up. And if that's happened with the other timings it goes up again

Oh yes, thanks, of course. I was getting my .22's mixed up. And yes, I see what you mean about timings going up.

 

[sundaaaay]

Good analysis. I think she wasn't screaming when he raped her as I think he raped her quickly after arriving and probably still near the car. I have always thought the pattern of screaming relates more to being chased and caught or being led/carried and threatened or realising where you're going so think the screams were related to being taken and put in the river. When I say chased, I know she couldn't run well due to being inebriated.

The screams could have been a chase through the park or exactly when the rape occurred, or if she was left alone in the park, or while he carried her alive to the river bank to get rid of her. She could have even tried to cross the river to get away from him. The question is which one's of these were physically possible for someone that cold and drunk to do, without falling over. If she was as drunk as the witnesses who had seen her that night describe, it seems unlikely to me she could have run that far and if she was left there alone the cause of death would likely have been of hypothermia and she would have be found on the ground in the park the next morning.

Its also interesting in that his crimes on the street he seems to use a condom (I assume to hide evidence) yet with LS he didn't use one, so maybe this was the reason he felt he had to put her in the river. I'm very curious to understand how he got her into the park initially without her screaming at that point though.

Also, I was under the impression PR was in the park until 12.19am and screams were heard at 12.14am from the River Hull (Witness SA) . Today they say the screams were heard at 12.30, some 10-15 minutes after Relowicz left Oak Road. Hmm

 

[Tortoise]

Back home at 12.22. Out again at 2.25. And off and up to his old tricks by 2.30.

And if 2.25 is 2.25.00 and 2.30 is 2.30.59 the time back at the park goes up. And if that's happened with the other timings it goes up again

I shouldn't think the prosecutor is going to undercut his own case, leaving an impression with the jury that makes them think the timing was tighter than it really was.

If he said just over 4 minutes for the last visit, and 7.5 minutes for the earlier visit, I think you can guarantee they've teased every second out of the cctv timings they could. I'd say it was more likely to be closer to 2:26 and 2:30 than what you have suggested here.

JMO

 

[JosieJo]

I'm confused now. I thought he was back home at 2.22am.

12.22 I think

I shouldn't think the prosecutor is going to undercut his own case, leaving an impression with the jury that makes them think the timing was tighter than it really was.

If he said just over 4 minutes for the last visit, and 7.5 minutes for the earlier visit, I think you can guarantee they've teased every second out of the cctv timings they could. I'd say it was more likely to be closer to 2:26 and 2:30 than what you have suggested here.

JMO

I feel that also the prosecution will put forward best case for him

 

[Sarahjo]

But he saw nothing apart from a man walking through the park. We know from the croda CCTV that at least four other people were walking through there as well even later than it is suggested PR was and nothing distinguishes it as PR who he saw.

Where exactly were the other people when they were picked up by the croda CCTV, i cant work out where they are by the stills, can anyone point out on a map where they were? and if they were picked up why wasn't PR and Libby picked up by it too?

 

[Vermont24]

Where exactly were the other people when they were picked up by the croda CCTV, i cant work out where they are by the stills, can anyone point out on a map where they were? and if they were picked up why wasn't PR and Libby picked up by it too?

PR and LS weren't picked up by the Croda camera because it's a different area, some distance away from the park and the area of Oak Road the case is concerned with.They wouldn't have passed that way.

 

[Vermont24]

@Sarahjo See map below. The area shown in the Croda CCTV is marked by the red circle. The area discussed at trial, nearest the entrance to the park, is marked by the black circle. I hope that helps you get your bearings.

 

[Pinkizzy]

I don't understand how Libby's body managed to travel all the way to the Humber without being snagged along the way.

 

[Sarahjo]

@Sarahjo See map below. The area shown in the Croda CCTV is marked by the red circle. The area discussed at trial, nearest the entrance to the park, is marked by the black circle. I hope that helps you get your bearings.

ah thanks for that!

 

[Vermont24]

I don't understand how Libby's body managed to travel all the way to the Humber without being snagged along the way.

I once saw a (dead) labrador being carried along at a good pace. The river can flow fast, and not long after the area around the park it has sheer iron siding. There isn't anything for a body to be snagged on.

 

[Ruthbullock]

@Sarahjo See map below. The area shown in the Croda CCTV is marked by the red circle. The area discussed at trial, nearest the entrance to the park, is marked by the black circle. I hope that helps you get your bearings.

Thanks for that, I asked earlier, before court commenced today- was there not CCTV on the other side of Croda overlooking the park? You may know the answer?

 

[cocomisty]

Mr Wright said: “What was it about, not only returning to Oak Road, but stopping your car and getting out of it that you wanted to lie to police about?

“If you’re telling the truth about having consensual sex with that girl and not attacking her, what reason did you have to lie about getting out of your car for four and a half minutes?”


Pawel Relowicz 'returned to Oak Road to clean up after killing Libby'

 

[Vermont24]

Thanks for that, I asked earlier, before court commenced today- was there not CCTV on the other side of Croda overlooking the park? You may know the answer?

I don't know for sure, sorry. However, Croda's land is separated from the park by dense trees, so it doesn't really overlook in the way it might seem. I've done my best to mark the Croda boundary in red - again, it's behind thick vegetation and fencing.

 

[Newthoughts]

The screams could have been a chase through the park or exactly when the rape occurred, or if she was left alone in the park, or while he carried her alive to the river bank to get rid of her. She could have even tried to cross the river to get away from him. The question is which one's of these were physically possible for someone that cold and drunk to do, without falling over. If she was as drunk as the witnesses who had seen her that night describe, it seems unlikely to me she could have run that far and if she was left there alone the cause of death would likely have been of hypothermia and she would have be found on the ground in the park the next morning.

Its also interesting in that his crimes on the street he seems to use a condom (I assume to hide evidence) yet with LS he didn't use one, so maybe this was the reason he felt he had to put her in the river. I'm very curious to understand how he got her into the park initially without her screaming at that point though.

Also, I was under the impression PR was in the park until 12.19am and screams were heard at 12.14am from the River Hull (Witness SA) . Today they say the screams were heard at 12.30, some 10-15 minutes after Relowicz left Oak Road. Hmm

I have an alternative option for the later Condom.

The second female he'd seen doesn't seem to have emerged where he thought (if I'm understanding the cross examination correctly) so I wondered was it to leave as a little PR present somewhere he'd been before. I think with the snow and everything he might not have needed it to hide evidence on the Chicken Shack wall. It probably wouldn't be found.

Either way it suggests he was confidence his DNA in Libby wouldn't be found. IMO

I don't think escape was on option for her from the hypothermia expert. Running and fighting would be difficult.

Both witnesses heard similar screams but neither heard two sets. So either they didn't hear what the other person heard or the timing is out. I'd opt for the latter as the students seem to have said 'about' and didn't look out of the window

 

[Newthoughts]

I don't understand how Libby's body managed to travel all the way to the Humber without being snagged along the way.

Me neither.

 

[havntgotaclue]

But here we have two witnesses checking the time so the chances of them both being wrong are less.

"Mr Brewster says it was around 12.30am that he heard the scream. He says he checked the time."

"She says it was at around 12.30am that she last checked her phone on February 1."

And Mr Brewster also said he thought it was an animal. Whereas Mr Alford thought it was human.[/QUOTE i would have thought as sam alford lives right at the entrance to the park he would have heard foxes in season before and able to destinguish between animal and human screams

 

[Dotta]

The screams could have been a chase through the park or exactly when the rape occurred, or if she was left alone in the park, or while he carried her alive to the river bank to get rid of her. She could have even tried to cross the river to get away from him. The question is which one's of these were physically possible for someone that cold and drunk to do, without falling over. If she was as drunk as the witnesses who had seen her that night describe, it seems unlikely to me she could have run that far and if she was left there alone the cause of death would likely have been of hypothermia and she would have be found on the ground in the park the next morning.

Its also interesting in that his crimes on the street he seems to use a condom (I assume to hide evidence) yet with LS he didn't use one, so maybe this was the reason he felt he had to put her in the river. I'm very curious to understand how he got her into the park initially without her screaming at that point though.

Also, I was under the impression PR was in the park until 12.19am and screams were heard at 12.14am from the River Hull (Witness SA) . Today they say the screams were heard at 12.30, some 10-15 minutes after Relowicz left Oak Road. Hmm

Re "using his condom hiding evidence". I thought his DNA was all over the place - he left condoms at houses he burgled and sperm on doors and windows.

 

[I wonder]

They don't have to prove exactly how and when he did it. A man behaving the way he did that night being indisputably connected forensically with her body will usually be enough for most British juries.

I disagree. The jury have to be beyond reasonable doubt and murder isn't that easy to prove. Look at the PC Harper case.

You do the UK justice system great harm by your claim and you are wrong.

 

[Vera_dci]

I've just come across the below video. I think its the house and yeast factory cctv.

Libby Squire trial CCTV