UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #22

[tedtink]

I agree at some point he was going to go further i think the problem here is ..did he plan to find someone that specific night or did it not cross his mind till he saw a vulnerable woman..I know planning only takes a second in law but I'm just referring to it being opportunistic or long term plan

Also did it escalate to rape or murder and rape

Who knows what he fantasized about but this was a red flag for me.........

"I was looking for sex or to masturbate at woman"
Relowicz says he “does not even” know the street but had not found a woman to masturbate at before meeting Libby.

I believe there was a plan, then an opportunity presented itself.


Looking at his past I believe he was very comfortable and very confident in his 'hunting ground'. He knew it inside out and even made the effort to gain more knowledge/ the leaflet on student accommodation/possibly the drone 'research'/ awareness of CCTV camera's.

This was a studied approach and in itself suggests a degree of pre-mediation in his crimes so far.
JMO

 

[mrazda71]

Agree with this completely. It is a scary experience to have that happen (happened to me and a friend when we were 16 walking home through a park, heard a cough at the side of some bowling greens, turned around to see a guy stood under a light pleasuring himself and he never took his eyes off us the whole time) really creepy.

My sister experienced the same at 16 waiting at a bus top

It's even more terrifying and traumatic when it happens while you're in your own home though.

I think you've got to be considered a more serious and dangerous offender when you are invading someones home. ❤

 

[Skigh]

Who knows what he fantasized about but this was a red flag for me.........

"I was looking for sex or to masturbate at woman"
Relowicz says he “does not even” know the street but had not found a woman to masturbate at before meeting Libby.

I believe there was a plan, then an opportunity presented itself.

He was looking for sex or to masturbate. I do not think this was his first time cruising the streets looking for sex. I think it could be highly probable he has raped before.

 

[Sooty]

Not to torture this, but IMO a bomber jacket is a fairly generic term, meaning a shorter jacket which hits around the hip and has a low collar. PR's jacket clearly has a hood and is more of a parka style, but it wouldn't make me question a witness testimony.

Local heard 'desperate' screams for 7 minutes the night Libby disappeared

As ever, apologies for linking to this particular publication.

looking at the presentation of Mr Alford statement in this link it also throws considerable doubt that the man he saw could NOT have been PR. Not because of the clothing, but because by his observations of the screams. Even trying to find best fit from his timings given - the screams went on until the time that PR left by car, and then ‘minutes’ later he sees the man leaving the park. By his statement the man he saw was not PR.

MOO

 

[Miss_French]

Not to torture this, but IMO a bomber jacket is a fairly generic term, meaning a shorter jacket which hits around the hip and has a low collar.

Did someone say Sam Alford was ex-military? In which case I would think he'd use 'bomber jacket' in the traditional sense of it being fitted at the waist, as opposed to the 'parka' style which is like uniform. However, some of the longer camo jackets have a drawstring in the bottom hem, so PR could have drawn that which would make it look tighter at the bottom and/or pulled the jacket up to access his flies and left it there.

 

[tedtink]

Did someone say Sam Alford was ex-military? In which case I would think he'd use 'bomber jacket' in the traditional sense of it being fitted at the waist, as opposed to the 'parka' style which is like uniform. However, some of the longer camo jackets have a drawstring in the bottom hem, so PR could have drawn that which would make it look tighter at the bottom and/or pulled the jacket up to access his flies and left it there.

Good point!
Jacket pulled up to waist.

 

[Ruthbullock]

Yes, and Libby was wearing a bomber jacket, so perhaps not necessarily a problem for the prosecution.

Libby was wearing a faux leather jacket, which is nothing like a bomber jacket, even in the darkness. Also to add even if she did indeed shed her jacket, I doubt it would have fit PRs shoulders- they have very little give and are not designed to be loose fitting on the person who buys it.

 

[Joolz1975]

My sister experienced the same at 16 waiting at a bus top

It's even more terrifying and traumatic when it happens while you're in your own home though.

I think you've got to be considered a more serious and dangerous offender when you are invading someones home. ❤

Yeh I agree. Outside the home is terrible enough but inside the place where you are supposed to feel more secure is a horrific violation and should be taken more seriously.

Something really sinister knowing that someone has entered your safe place.

We were burgled when in was a teen and came back to a ransacked house (we had been at my nans for christmas day dinner) and my mum was so upset they had taken all her mums jewellery who had died. And they left footprints on the bed where they had stood on it to reach the top of a cupboard. We were not home at the time but it was still scary.

Then as I have mentioned before two men broke into my house when I was in bed and came into my bedroom. Luckily i screamed as they opened the door and they legged it but could have been so much worse. Never felt fear like it and now have a huge baseball bat under the bed and would not hesitate to use it.

 

[Joolz1975]

He was looking for sex or to masturbate. I do not think this was his first time cruising the streets looking for sex. I think it could be highly probable he has raped before.

No me either Skigh and fully expecting more to come out after trial about him.

 

[Newthoughts]

When I say "want him to be guilty" I didn't mean in the the true sense ...rather how their thoughts are effected (and this can be unconsciously) by the type of man he is ...ie a vile sexual pervert

I do not think we can say its impossible she could get to the Riverside itself because of her walking and condition...if she went herself it leaves all the time in the world to reach there ..no time restrictions as it would if PR took her

Confidence in getting caught can mirror thinking you have not done anything majorly wrong ...how do we know which mindset allowed him to out again that night

The judges ruling in the last trial around his crimes not being opportunistic cannot really be applied to rape and murder as a totally different crime ...especially when he had no idea he would bump into a very vulnerable woman that night

His previous crimes were based on a need frighten women ...but he has never shown any violence or even touched any of them before

Personally I thing its not the jurys role to try and take any inferences from the pathologists wording ...if you pick certain phrases out and ignore others is not really allowed...this could be done by either side of the fence ...therefore the facts should be adhered to ..ie cause of death unknown and he wasn't going to be drawn on giving a "most likely cause" ..his words

To me he caused her death but just playing devils advocate regards what the jury might think
Obviously the judges summing up will give us the best idea ..but not sure we will get it all

To counter the devil's advocate

Not thinking you've done something wrong and knowing it's against the law are different tho. I think he knew it was rape and he knew he'd be reported. Or else why not admit it. Therefore he would know there was a chance they would be at the park. Yet he is confident enough to return and then to fill a condom with more DNA. I can't see why he would risk that.

According to his testimony left her outside the park on Beresford which would mean she'd have taken an active decision to go from a lit residential area onto a dark road and then a dark park after having just been raped. And then get herself to the river

Earlier on she could barely walk on a pavement without falling over and that would have got slowly worse as she got colder - on open ground in snow more distressed. The terrain towards the river would also get tougher as well. Far harder for her to negotiate. Plus there is some time limit in that it also has to link to the screams which stop.

He also makes an active decision to narrate events close to the road and away from the river - yet both sets of witness statements locate screams in the same location closer to it yet ntoo close for her to have reached it in his version. Why?

Both accounts describe similar screams. Neither hears the others screams. Are they more likely the same screams but one set of times are out? One is accompanied by visual evidence.

He admits was out looking for vulnerable women - in a student area on a student club night. He had no reason to be there.

If he planned earlier crimes why would he suddenly change as he escalates?

I think it is the jury's job to draw the inferences from expert witnesses. And the job of expert witnesses to be honest in making them whilst abiding by the.law.

They will have a fuller and guidance.

Whilst we disagree on whether there is enough to convict we both seem to think him responsible and I think we want him punished. For Libby and her loved ones and to prevent it happening again

 

[tedtink]

Agree with this completely. It is a scary experience to have that happen (happened to me and a friend when we were 16 walking home through a park, heard a cough at the side of some bowling greens, turned around to see a guy stood under a light pleasuring himself and he never took his eyes off us the whole time) really creepy.

My sister experienced the same at 16 waiting at a bus top

It's even more terrifying and traumatic when it happens while you're in your own home though.

I think you've got to be considered a more serious and dangerous offender when you are invading someones home. ❤

Sounds awful.
Sex crimes are horrific.
My brother, who sadly passed far too young, was 'flashed' at by a man when he was 17.
He said he'd never come to terms with it, the effect on him was profound.

 

[Sarahjo]

@Sarahjo you say murder 'wont go unreported' but if someone simply goes missing (as many do each year) and there is nothing to link you with the victim then why worry? in this case the recovery of the body changed everything

but missing will also still be reported as she was first thing the next day, and there was plenty to link him, we know this due to the fact he was arrested a week later, before Libby was found.
My thinking is he was banking on her not remembering the rape or not reporting it, I can see him escalate to rape but just don’t see him escalate to murder.. unless of course he has committed similar rapes previously we don’t know about and murder was his next escalation..

 

[JosieJo]

He was looking for sex or to masturbate. I do not think this was his first time cruising the streets looking for sex. I think it could be highly probable he has raped before.

I'm not convinced the "i was look for sex" line was added as part of his defence after reading the evidence against him ... it made it sound more casual rather than he took advantage of a vulnerable woman

 

[JosieJo]

To counter the devil's advocate

Not thinking you've done something wrong and knowing it's against the law are different tho. I think he knew it was rape and he knew he'd be reported. Or else why not admit it. Therefore he would know there was a chance they would be at the park. Yet he is confident enough to return and then to fill a condom with more DNA. I can't see why he would risk that.

According to his testimony left her outside the park on Beresford which would mean she'd have taken an active decision to go from a lit residential area onto a dark road and then a dark park after having just been raped. And then get herself to the river

Earlier on she could barely walk on a pavement without falling over and that would have got slowly worse as she got colder - on open ground in snow more distressed. The terrain towards the river would also get tougher as well. Far harder for her to negotiate. Plus there is some time limit in that it also has to link to the screams which stop.

He also makes an active decision to narrate events close to the road and away from the river - yet both sets of witness statements locate screams in the same location closer to it yet ntoo close for her to have reached it in his version. Why?

Both accounts describe similar screams. Neither hears the others screams. Are they more likely the same screams but one set of times are out? One is accompanied by visual evidence.

He admits was out looking for vulnerable women - in a student area on a student club night. He had no reason to be there.

If he planned earlier crimes why would he suddenly change as he escalates?

I think it is the jury's job to draw the inferences from expert witnesses. And the job of expert witnesses to be honest in making them whilst abiding by the.law.

They will have a fuller and guidance.

Whilst we disagree on whether there is enough to convict we both seem to think him responsible and I think we want him punished. For Libby and her loved ones and to prevent it happening again

I think a lot of those points I agree with to an extent...I do think his actions going out that night are questionable but "could" relate to either side of the fence

I also have a problem that both sets of screams ...having already allowed for variation by the witness himself ..have PR back at the car at the time ...especially now we know he was wearing a camouflage jacket

He gave a valid reason to be out looking that night ...to do what he normally does plus added looking for sex

I totally get most points from both sides thats the problem..I couldn't be sure ...hopefully the jury will be

 

[Winterbells]

There's something odd, to me, about the fact that he said he was looking for 'sex' or to masturbate at a woman. I can't help but wonder if he added for 'sex' because his defence includes that he had consensual sex with Libby. If he'd said he was 'just' looking for a woman to masturbate at, how does he explain the presence of his semen inside Libby's body? He needs the jury to believe that he was looking for either. It's not easy to just find a woman and have sex with her. Unless money changes hands, women don't generally have sex with some bloke who's just randomly approached her in the street. I also don't believe he gets satisfaction from 'sex'. His thing has been masturbating at women, shocking and frightening them, violating their privacy by staring at them, stealing their most intimate posessions, viewing them in private moments, or depositing his semen on their property, their homes, their children's toys, etc. He wants to make it sound like he had 'sex' with Libby, but in reality, it was nothing of the sort. I also think he doesn't see his previous crimes as particularly 'bad'. He doesn't see them as 'cheating' on his wife, because he's not having 'sex'. He says this is the first time he's ever 'cheated' on his wife. I can believe it. He's never had such an opportunity as the one he had with Libby. A captive. But she screamed and screamed and made it so difficult for him to get what he wanted, so he killed her and then, I believe, he relieved his frustration.

 

[Winterbells]

sorry, meant to clarify 'get what he wanted' meaning something that didn't involve penetration. I KNOW he could have done that in the Endsleigh centre, but for some reason, he liked the idea of the park instead. There were cars and people around in the cctv footage of Beverley Road - maybe too risky to masturbate at her there. I don't know, but it seems to me that it all went horribly wrong for him, plan-wise, in the park. He ended up murdering someone he wanted to masturbate at.

 

[NorthernSoul]

but missing will also still be reported as she was first thing the next day, and there was plenty to link him, we know this due to the fact he was arrested a week later, before Libby was found.
My thinking is he was banking on her not remembering the rape or not reporting it, I can see him escalate to rape but just don’t see him escalate to murder.. unless of course he has committed similar rapes previously we don’t know about and murder was his next escalation..

Of course we can't know what was going through his mind but surely he would know if he had committed murder that he would possibly be linked to Libby by CCTV footage of his movements that night even in the absence of a body. You might think that if someone had committed murder they would lie low to avoid attracting the attention of any passer-by who might subsequently report them as having been seen in the vicinity. Yet PR was back out masturbating on the street, basically indulging in his usual behaviour as if nothing had happened. Meanwhile, Libby's friends were in fact out looking for her. It could even be construed as evidence that he felt what had happened was not that serious; in his warped mind he had had a sexual encounter with a drunk girl and that was that.

 

[Sarahjo]

Of course we can't know what was going through his mind but surely he would know if he had committed murder that he would possibly be linked to Libby by CCTV footage of his movements that night even in the absence of a body. You might think that if someone had committed murder they would lie low to avoid attracting the attention of any passer-by who might subsequently report them as having been seen in the vicinity. Yet PR was back out masturbating on the street, basically indulging in his usual behaviour as if nothing had happened. Meanwhile, Libby's friends were in fact out looking for her. It could even be construed as evidence that he felt what had happened was not that serious; in his warped mind he had had a sexual encounter with a drunk girl and that was that.

Exactly! I also think that his behaviour would be somewhat different than usual if this was his first murder.. I don’t think the rape would have particularly bothered him and he would have carried on with his normal nocturnal activities but surely if he’s just taken someone’s life for the first time ever there would be some behavioural changes? I don’t know, maybe he is just so utterly detached from any sense of normality that murder also wouldn’t phase him.

 

[tedtink]

Exactly! I also think that his behaviour would be somewhat different than usual if this was his first murder.. I don’t think the rape would have particularly bothered him and he would have carried on with his normal nocturnal activities but surely if he’s just taken someone’s life for the first time ever there would be some behavioural changes? I don’t know, maybe he is just so utterly detached from any sense of normality that murder also wouldn’t phase him.

Any behavioral changes would depend on his psychopathology, unfortunately we're not privy to this and can only make assumptions based on scant evidence and on our own beliefs.

 

[bos]

Someone please jog my memory ...

Have we heard, when committing his previous crimes - did he walk from home to the nearby streets or did he use his car?

I don’t think we know - the police won’t have had to trawl CCTV for his car for these offences as his DNA & possession of stolen articles were enough to place him at the scenes.