UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #23

[LastSeenWearing]

About the screams. I do not think they occurred during the time Libby was being raped as they went on far longer than I would think PR took to rape her. I think she screamed either while being carried to the river or because she was frightened by both the dark and running water of the river with her near the river. I did think at one time she might have been screaming from actually inside the river maybe with her legs stuck in the mud as the expert said a person could last for 30 mins in the river before succumbing to hypothermia. However I do not think the screams would have gone on so long as according to locals the current is strong so I think she would have been swept away much faster than the screams lasted. So for me either she screamed being carried by PR or up by the river. If she was running from him I don't think the screams would have a pattern to them as she would be too out of breath and needing to conserve energy to get away and hide. Hiding would be done in silence even when frightened.

 

[Newthoughts]

Yes I realise that, but realistically we don’t know so he could have, but may not have- but for some reason he tells people (even before LS body is recovered) that she removed her underwear.

He's a liar. He tells police she walks away clutching her underwear.

 

[tigerowl]

@Newthoughts what body are you referring to being found in the river? If it is the one I think you may mean, that boy was actually murdered and found by the riverbank. Not actually in the river as best I know.

 

[Newthoughts]

@Newthoughts what body are you referring to being found in the river? If it is the one I think you may mean, that boy was actually murdered and found by the riverbank. Not actually in the river as best I know.

Yes sorry. My bad. The earlier reports were less clear but it says found on the bank. Have edited other post

 

[Tortoise]

It’s very common, especially in places like York and Durham where you have a ton of students and a river that runs right through the city. We’ve had a couple of big York cases on here - Megan and Rory spring immediately to mind.

This isn’t quite the same though.

I go back to whether Libby knew the river was there and/or whether she could see it in front of her that night. I think it’s really unlikely she fell in herself based on local descriptions - up a steep bank, at which point she’d have seen it. I can’t recall which member did a late night visit but they said the river reflected factory lights from the opposite bank. Plus, we have her mums testimony that two things she was scared of were darkness and moving water.

I'm not sure though that they can say that is where she entered the river.

 

[NorthernSoul]

I know it is. Sorry I'm being daft. Sadly it is very common. But that is not the only factor.

Libby wasn't near water when PR picked her up. Nor was she near water where he claims to have left her. She was near houses. There was no reason for her to head to the river even in a confused state and in shock.

Nor was she very capable of walking. We've seen she struggled on a pavement. It's a quick route to the river if you're going straight there. But there is a lot of space to wobble and fall if you're not. And undergrowth to negotiate

Nor was the path to this particular river particularly clear or flat.

She doesn't just have to fall in and drown she has to get into the Humber Estuary without getting caught anywhere.

She would struggle to fall that far in.

And somebody had already been screaming close to that river when, allegedly she was with PR.

And a man that could have been PR was seen walking away from that river after those screams stopped when she was allegedly with PR.

And she was full of PRs DNA so if alive far as he knew she'd report him for rape yet he didn't once cover his back until presented with evidence.

And he returned to the park later despite claiming he left her on a residential street which is the last place I would expect a girl that wants her mum to head.

On balance of probability considering all the evidence suggests PR put her in the river. The search for reasonable doubts doesn't find any that can then go on to explain every single other thing

Edited by me to remove error

You have many good points there which I agree with. I want to point out that I am in no way attempting to defend PR and as I have stated earlier I believe he may well be guilty. I am just tussling in my mind with whether there is any other reasonable explanation than murder. I'm 90% there but I just wish there was some concrete proof.

 

[ChiCubs2016]

I'm not sure though that they can say that is where she entered the river.

So do you think she walked somewhere, found a bridge and jumped in? I promise this is not sarcastic, just curiosity about what you mean?

 

[Tortoise]

So do you think she walked/ran from outside the park through it and into the river (which is where he says he left her), or do you think they actually made it to the park and she sadly stumbled in from there?

I don't see him chasing her that far either, she was in a poorly state, as the CCTV has shown. IMO

I'm not sure.

 

[LastSeenWearing]

I'm not sure though that they can say that is where she entered the river.

The only problem with entering the river from another place outside the park is how Libby would have got there as I would have thought she would have been picked up at some stage on CCTV. Unless transported in the boot of PRs car but again surely that would have been seen on CCTV heading to a different river location either on the same night or a different day or night. I just can't see how CCTV would not pick this up.

 

[Tortoise]

So do you think she walked somewhere, found a bridge and jumped in? I promise this is not sarcastic, just curiosity about what you mean?

No, that's not what I think.

There is a very long bank winding around the edge of the park, accessible at many places and pathways around the lake area.

 

[Newthoughts]

You have many good points there which I agree with. I want to point out that I am in no way attempting to defend PR and as I have stated earlier I believe he may well be guilty. I am just tussling in my mind with whether there is any other reasonable explanation than murder. I'm 90% there but I just wish there was some concrete proof.

There is never concrete proof in any case tho. Nothing else realistically fits all the evidence of that night and subsequent interviews. It has to be all the evidence. If one piece is so overwhelming it outweighs the rest, say for example SA seeing a man with flowing locks or something else that totally excludes PR. walking away then yes - suddenly there is a doubt. But that doesn't exist

The fair trial is for Libby as well as PR. If he was innocent the weight of evidence simply wouldn't be there.

 

[tigerowl]

@Tortoise I find myself agreeing with you again.

I do think it is extremely likely that Libby got herself in the river. Once you go through the treeline there are many places to enter the river. Drunk, cold, disorientated, possibly hypothermic and definitely traumatised. I think it fits much more with the 'weighing up all the co-incidences' points been put forward previously.

I know that is unpalatable to many people, but even after reading the prosecution's summing up yesterday, I still feel this is the most likely outcome.

 

[Newthoughts]

If you read the inquest article I shared this morning it would make sense

I did. But it doesn't give any indication that the River Ouse at Nun Monkton was like the River Hull in Oak Road park. And we know the ferryman was deliberately heading that way unlike Libby who could barely walk without falling over.

 

[mrjitty]

I'm not sure.

Just carrying over from the other thread

But maybe he invented the knickers story to his mates to explain why he would have touched her knickers, if they were found.

I'm not sure we've got the full picture yet (or ever will).

I think this is plausible

The only thing is why would he need to explain that if he knew his semen would be found?

Something I am trying to do right now is try to game it out from his viewpoint (Mr Fossil Style). So not as a joined up thinking, but first in a panic, and then responding to events.

It's a bit like a time travel movie, where each timeline is somewhat obscured by the next. This was a big issue on Pistorius. He obscured the true timeline by changing things and lying, but you can't reverse engineer it logically, because he may have changed his mind midstream as events overtook him. in Pistorius, this all happens in a few short minutes as his staging is interrupted by neighbours and security. In this case, PR has more time to stage, conceal, and plant new versions, as he watches events unfold.

So let's say he didn't do the murder - then on the night, and the next morning, he is trying to cover up a rape.

Then Libby is missing. On the one hand this is great for him, but maybe he is expecting she'll be found frozen in a park or ditch somewhere, and suddenly he has much bigger problems ...

So now he tries a couple of "trial balloons" - he picked up a girl etc etc??

But then, if he expects Libby to be found, he must know he is in huge trouble with the forensics?

I am more leaning towards him being worried about the CCTV than Libby being found.

 

[Officer Dibble]

The discussions above about Libby possibly screaming in the river. I mentioned 2 years ago that I thought she was screaming from being in the river (by however means she got there). Yes I know her mum said she was scared of water and darkness. Now we know more about PR's movements and returns to the park, could she have got herself out of the river, then collapsed from previous plus now new levels of hypothermia and then did PR on one of his return visits put her back in the river?

 

[Ruthbullock]

@NorthernSoul
Yes of course in the middle of town, where there are no barriers at all to the river (I'm from York) but the situation at the river we are considering here is nothing like that

To clarify the example I shared from yesterday was in a york paper, not in york. It was at Beningborough and the river slopes are very similar, if not identical, to the banks where LS went in.

 

[mrjitty]

He left one on a door handle and another next to a child’s toy. Two separate instances.

Yes - it appears to be part of his kink

 

[tedtink]

Final point on the knickers.

This has significance somehow, as he set it up in his discussions with friends, and in his testimony, and we know it is part of his MO. Yet Libby was found with them on.

What is the point of this strange detail? It's clearly a core part of his lies that he sought to build into a backstory.

Did he put them back on her? Was it his idea that she would be found with them on so no one would suspect a rape?

The prosecution suggest he didn't bother to remove them just pulled them out the way. She was still wearing her shoes which would have made it more difficult to both remove and replace them

They did point out how difficult it would be in her state to replace them with her shoes on.

Was it PR who 'walked away clutching them' after the rape? (visit 2) and he has attributed that to Libby (projection)?

Perhaps he took them as a trophy as per his usual MO.

Upon reflection at home he may have thought it best 'for him' that if she were ever found it was better she be wearing them.
So could he have put them back on her on visit 3, when she was dead or dying before he put her into the river?
There's a reason why he goes back 2.5 hours later - He said he was 'worried about her'
“I went out in the car and looked whether she had gone anywhere or was laid on the ground anywhere.”
WHY did he think she'd still be laid on the ground at that particular spot, after that long if he'd seen her walking away? Even if he hadn't seen her walking away, wouldn't you presume after that long, she'd be somewhere else - safely at home maybe.
IMO He knew she was still 'laid on the ground'.
JMO

 

[Skigh]

PR changes his story anytime irrefutable evidence comes to light.
I think in his earlier stories to his friends he was worried about being seen on cctv,possibly with his trousers undone and wanted to make it look like Libby had initiated something sexual by removing her pants. He also told the story of Libby trying to undo his zip.

 

[bos]

I think @LastSeenWearing & @Tortoise ’s points are plausible re the screams being because Libby was heading towards water against her will or was already in the water. I also don’t definitively think we can say that the entry point was near the boathouse.

I don’t see how the river can interrupt the chain of causation;it was there during PR’s other visits, it hasn’t suddenly appeared. If you take someone to a place to commit a crime against them isn’t it foreseeable that they may attempt to escape that harm? Isn’t it foreseeable that a consequence of taking a drunk young woman to a dark place containing both a river & a pond is that entering the water as a result of fleeing is a possible outcome which is likely to be fatal given the temperatures & intoxication? Isn’t this recklessness indicative of oblique intention & therefore murder?