UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #23

[tedtink]

It said some water in the left side
Not like as if she drowned.
It could be it was after death
Water is funny like that.
It travels into all available space.
If she’d drowned they’d be full

I'm not an expert, I think when he says 'fluid' he doesn't mean water per se.
It could be fluid that builds up in the lining of the lung, after water has entered.

 

[Littlegreenlady]

I completely agree. I was very much like you in my late teens.

Long time lurker, but felt compelled to post today.

This part of the trial has really upset me on a visceral level. When I was 19 I was in a situation very much like Libby - a man offered to help me when I was extremely drunk. He ended up violently assaulting me, but I managed to escape. I truly thought I was going to die. At his trial they brought up my precarious mental health too. For me, this was the hardest part of the trial - that this man who only knew me because he hurt me was allowed to know my innermost thoughts, and then use those to say I was a liar. It was such a violation, and nothing to do with what he did that night. Much like Libby, they also tried to make out I was upset because he had rejected me. Thankfully, the jury saw through it. But it was horrific. Ten years on I don't think I will ever truly get over what happened in those six months - the assault, the trial.

I am so so sorry Libby's family are having to listen to this. I am so sorry that she wasn't as lucky as me. It is beyond cruel and gross that they are painting her in this way. I really hope the jury see through this.

And yes, I understand the defence have a job to do, of course, and of course I lack any impartiality. My heart just aches for Libby and her loved ones.

I'm so sorry you had to go through that experience - I can't begin to imagine how it must feel reading the trial reports for Libby. Sending you much love and support

 

[Winterbells]

Yes but PR said it in court and now his defence barrister is saying she did. I didn't expect decency from the defence but I did expect consistency

Did PR say it in court? or in one of his statements to the police?

 

[bos]

Someone on here contacted one of the journos who's in court to ask if he had anyone there - can't remember for the life of me who it was! But the journalist was under the impression there isn't anyone, but can't be 100% sure.

Think it was @mrazda71 ; proceedings being relayed to second courtroom for social distancing &Sophie Corcoran of Hull Daily Mail doesn’t know who is in there as she is in press gallery of main court

 

[ChiCubs2016]

Did PR say it in court? or in one of his statements to the police?

I believe he said while testifying. Something along the line of putting it in because she could have opened the door at any time? I will have to go back and find it.

 

[jamjim]

14:12
Witness never called the police when hearing screams

The trial has resumed.

Sam Alford, who lived next to Oak Road playing fields preocously said he heard a woman's screams near the River Hull in the playing fields.

But Mr Saxby says they never prompted Mr Alford to take further action.

He said: "“Let me start with Sam Alford and can I begin with the screams but ignore the timings for the moment? Let’s assume they were in that seven and a half minute window and assume they were Libby Squire.

“As he described them do they fit with the prosecution’s theory that this was Pawel Relowicz raping and killing Libby Squire. He said there were a number of them - five or six. Each, he said, was 30 seconds to a minute apart. Desperate was the word he used.

“These screams did not cause Sam Alford to go out and have a look or cause him to call the police even after he saw a man. I invite you to analyse them, desperate not frightened or terror-stricken or other descriptions you might put with someone being attacked."

Libby Squire murder trial live: Defence gives closing statement

 

[jamjim]

14:17
Relowicz could easily have silenced Libby

Mr Saxby has also questioned the nature of the screams heard.

He said: “It would take a second for him [Relowicz] to place a hand over her mouth, are the prosecution saying he wouldn’t be able to silence her in the first scream? During or after the second, third scream, fourth scream, fifth scream?

“Here laid bare the prosecution’s case: ‘She was screaming because he was overpowering her’ it simply doesn’t work. Even if there was 10 seconds in between screams it simply doesn’t work.

“He’s pursuing her is he, this man who is sober and he’s pursuing her and she’s screaming and then she stops?

"We wait ten seconds and presumably he’s caught up with her and there’s another scream and another 10 seconds, she’s managing to flee somehow, another ten seconds. If you look at them properly with an open mind these don’t correspond to the prosecution’s case.

"They’re pretty consistent are they not with a lost, tormented soul wanting help, intermittent screams as you might expect given the position."

Libby Squire murder trial live: Defence gives closing statement

 

[ChiCubs2016]

I think I am linking this correctly. Seatbelt testimony,
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #21

 

[Newthoughts]

I remember the pathologist saying bruises on arm did he say they looked like grab marks or was that the inference we took? I can't remember

He said it was consistent with being grabbed but it couldn't be conclusive because of the time she'd been in the water.

I think PR incorporated into one of his versions tho so I expect it was.

He also said some injuries would have gone due to time in water

 

[tedtink]

Relowicz could easily have silenced Libby

Yeah, if he'd have had a 3rd hand!

 

[Winterbells]

I think this should read he ..not she ...the defence is pointing out the prosecution said him putting her seat belt on suggests he wanted it to be harder to get out
He is countering that by saying so why did he not go round and lock the door

That makes sense - 'he' not 'she'. But I don't understand "go round and lock the door". He was already 'round' when she got in and anyway, car doors can all be locked from the inside... and extra locked with a child lock in some cases. He may well have child-locked Libby in.

 

[jamjim]

14:22
Was the man seen even Relowicz?

Mr Saxby questions where Relowicz had time to attack, rape and murder Libby, throw her into the River Hull and get back to his car in seven and a half minutes.

He tells the jury: “There is something a bit wrong with the screams and look at the times - she has to have been pursued because that’s the screaming isn’t it?

"There’s an awful lot happening. No wonder they wanted the man to have been running. All of this needs to be looked at in the context of the screams.

"Your duty is to consider the evidence in its entirety. There’s no question of Mr Alford identifying the man as Pawel Relowicz - he doesn’t say he heard anyone going into a car or a car driving off which he would have done surely?

"As you heard, as he saw the man going past, put his face to the window so he could see.

“Alford surely would have heard that? It is likely, we submit, he was not seeing Pawel Relowicz."

Libby Squire murder trial live: Defence gives closing statement

 

[Newthoughts]

14:17
Relowicz could easily have silenced Libby

Mr Saxby has also questioned the nature of the screams heard.

He said: “It would take a second for him [Relowicz] to place a hand over her mouth, are the prosecution saying he wouldn’t be able to silence her in the first scream? During or after the second, third scream, fourth scream, fifth scream?

“Here laid bare the prosecution’s case: ‘She was screaming because he was overpowering her’ it simply doesn’t work. Even if there was 10 seconds in between screams it simply doesn’t work.

“He’s pursuing her is he, this man who is sober and he’s pursuing her and she’s screaming and then she stops?

"We wait ten seconds and presumably he’s caught up with her and there’s another scream and another 10 seconds, she’s managing to flee somehow, another ten seconds. If you look at them properly with an open mind these don’t correspond to the prosecution’s case.

"They’re pretty consistent are they not with a lost, tormented soul wanting help, intermittent screams as you might expect given the position."

Libby Squire murder trial live: Defence gives closing statement

Pursuing her? Where did that come from? The expert on hypothermia said she would have impaired coordination and ability to run. Perhaps he means dragged or carried!

A lost tormented soul comes across naive rapist. What a defence

 

[bos]

I remember the pathologist saying bruises on arm did he say they looked like grab marks or was that the inference we took? I can't remember

15:19
'Possible' bruising on right arm 'that could represent gripping'
Dr Lyall added that there was possible bruising on the right upper arm, close to the chest.

He said: “It could represent gripping but I couldn’t say it was a genuine bruise.”

Libby Squire trial live: Lifeboat crews describe discovery of body

 

[tedtink]

That makes sense - 'he' not 'she'. But I don't understand "go round and lock the door". He was already 'round' when she got in and anyway, car doors can all be locked from the inside... and extra locked with a child lock in some cases. He may well have child-locked Libby in.

I've often thought that Libby may have thought she was in a 'taxi' that night.
JMO

 

[Winterbells]

I think I am linking this correctly. Seatbelt testimony,
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #21

Thank you, @ChiCubs2016 . Objection over-ruled.

 

[jamjim]

14:28
Timings do not add up, defence claims

Mr Saxby refers to the evidence on neighbiour Hannah Durkin who says she heard screams at 12.30am on February 1, 2019.

He said: "She [Hannah Durkin] did remember when she last checked her phone it was 12.30am. Sam Alford had real problems.

"To me, if Sam Alford was wrong about the times and when he checked the phone, the answer is straight forward - they were hearing the same thing at the same time and the screams happened later.

"If there were two sets of screams one at around 12.15am and another at 12.30am you will need to consider whether they were from different people. No - consider there the likelihood of two women on the playing fields screaming and panicking intermittently - it’s pretty unlikely isn’t it.

“If it was the same person then Libby Squire was still alive at 12.30am and Pawel Relowicz could not have killed her."

Libby Squire murder trial live: Defence gives closing statement

 

[JosieJo]

15:19
'Possible' bruising on right arm 'that could represent gripping'
Dr Lyall added that there was possible bruising on the right upper arm, close to the chest.

He said: “It could represent gripping but I couldn’t say it was a genuine bruise.”

Libby Squire trial live: Lifeboat crews describe discovery of body

Thanks ...so defence using him saying he couldn't say it was genuine bruising

 

[HLC35]

Hi Steve2021, thank you. Welcome too. I completely agree with you. And apologies to all if I haven’t replied the right way, I’m still trying to get to grips with the site mechanics!

Whilst I appreciate the role of the defence, it’s heartbreaking to read the mental health of Libby discussed in such a crude way. That night was such an unfortunate catalogue of bad luck for poor Libby. But she was on her way home. And then she met PR. And not by bad luck or chance; PR was watching her and stalked her. PR is a convicted, pre-meditated, threatening predator, tormenting his victims (condom on teddy bear, letterboxes ripped off to name just two instances) to invoke fear in them but to also demonstrate to them his fearlessness. His control of the situation. His decision to stand in court was a further extension of that. MOO

Welcome. I know exactly how you feel as I feel the same. I only joined here because of Libby and I have read every single post over the past 2 years but only decided to step out and write one of my own last week. It's making me cry reading what the defence is saying about Libby. I don't care, they can talk about suicide all day, I'm not interested. All I see is an intelligent young woman from a good home overcoming the hurdles we all face in life who'd no doubt have become a fine mother herself one day. There's only one reason why she won't now...PR.

 

[ChiCubs2016]

14:28
Timings do not add up, defence claims

Mr Saxby refers to the evidence on neighbiour Hannah Durkin who says she heard screams at 12.30am on February 1, 2019.

He said: "She [Hannah Durkin] did remember when she last checked her phone it was 12.30am. Sam Alford had real problems.

"To me, if Sam Alford was wrong about the times and when he checked the phone, the answer is straight forward - they were hearing the same thing at the same time and the screams happened later.

"If there were two sets of screams one at around 12.15am and another at 12.30am you will need to consider whether they were from different people. No - consider there the likelihood of two women on the playing fields screaming and panicking intermittently - it’s pretty unlikely isn’t it.

“If it was the same person then Libby Squire was still alive at 12.30am and Pawel Relowicz could not have killed her."

Libby Squire murder trial live: Defence gives closing statement

I think it is interesting that the Defense is suggesting SA may have been wrong about the time he checked his phone but HD did remember what time she checked her phone.
I read SA said he checked his phone at 12:14 and HD said she heard screams about 12:30. I do not recall hearing she checked her phone.
edit to add additional comment.