UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #23

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  • #581
Does anyone else think this verdict will be made all the more difficult for the Jury in the fact that many of their friends, family and work colleagues will be familiar with this case and will know they are a juror on it. If they come out with a not guilty verdict there could be an outpouring of fury from the general public and even people closer to them as this is such an emotive case and Libby was such a lovely girl with her whole life ahead of her? They have a tremendous amount of pressure on them right now.
I have to say being in Sheffield area myself, I know of no other person who is either following or even aware of this trial (not even police officer who lives next door). It doesn't help that so much time has passed too, so I don't think familiarity will be a factor for the jury.
 
  • #582
O/T but I am always fascinated by the use of language.
Where I come from we would only say "floor" if we were talking about interiors. Outside we would say "the ground". So someone would be lying on the floor if indoors, but on the ground if outside. I've noticed everyone on this thread has used the word floor. Interesting.
I have noticed this as well. We say floor for interiors as well. I have used floor rather than ground in my post so folks knew what I meant. :)
 
  • #583
It would be really good if they did reach a verdict by Friday.
Looking at the met office forecast ,snow is forecast from Sunday onwards in Sheffield.


Sheffield (South Yorkshire) weather
 
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  • #584
Hi @tedtink

i have found it strange that whilst he has sought trophies from previous crimes and has mentioned how this excites him, he didn’t take a trophy from this encounter. For example if he had committed murder, he could have taken her necklace, or something else from about her person. I think, if we are to believe his version, that it’s possible that he went back to see if, indeed, her underwear had been left there in the vicinity, or something. That would fit with what we know about him. Also possible that he went to reimagine the sexual encounter. He seems to return to the same areas. MOO
 
  • #585
Thanks @jamjim! Much appreciated!
 
  • #586
I'll be surprised if it's as quick as that. I don't expect a unanimous verdict and I don't think the judge would agree to a majority verdict after just two days.
I agree. Of course we have not heard everything mentioned in court but look how we all differ in opinion. I think the jury will be the same. MOO
 
  • #587
If I was on the jury I would have no doubts about convicting him on both counts.
 
  • #588
It’s difficult not to look further into the psyche of PR. think a great deal about his behaviour is ‘unusual’, surreal almost, very emotionally detached. Actions such as not internet searching for Libby’s disappearance in the days afterwards or roaming (predatory on) the streets again hours after he attacked her do not, I think, imply his innocence, rather adds to the level of detachment, cold planning and harm intended.

I fully appreciate the different points of view on the possibility of him not being guilty of murder, and agree the timing is tight, but I still think a man of that psychological disposition and physical ability/agility is able to rape and kill, and dispose of Libby (pains me to write it) in minutes. Also transfer her to the river.

It’s hard not to write this without sharing an experience I am currently subjected to. Albeit on a very low level, I have just recently reported a man who my partner and I hired to clean our gutters before Christmas. Very well recommended firm, good reviews, two colleagues sent to us who were very polite and pleasant, waved to my children etc. I thought nothing more of it until Christmas Eve when I received an anonymous WhatsApp message wishing me a happy Christmas. Then another one an hour later saying hi again, then another one with an emoji with the tongue sticking out. Two hours later he sent a photo of himself in bed. I did not respond to any of the next 14 messages sent over the next 2 weeks. Albeit ‘harmless’ ‘hello hun’ messages, (as a QC like Saxby would have it) but they were relentless. And intimidating. I do not know this man. A man I’ve never met before or said more than a few words to when he was at my home doing the job we’d paid him to do. I also got 5 prank calls from him (I presume it was him) of breathing down the phone then hanging up. My point is, some men out there, some women, cross boundaries. And are clearly not put off by no response. I felt scared that he’d been in our house, used the toilet (cringe) looked at my bedroom, looked at my children, and actively sought to get my phone number from his colleague/a file. He was not at all deterred by me asking to stop messaging either, in fact to this day I can still see he hadn’t actually read it. As if to still hold control. Very strange, worrying. I was very upset about it all and felt worried to go out. He’d clearly looked at my social media too judging by some of his messages. His firm were horrified after I called them about it. I’ve reported him to the police. They can’t do much other than give me a case reference. Even my partner said they can’t do anything unless he “ramps it up”. I don’t want him to ramp it up!!! He should be locked up now!!! God knows how many other women he is/has harassed.

Sorry, rant over. But that sort of behaviour and ‘entitlement’ all starts somewhere. No coincidence he’s in employment up a ladder where he can look into windows. No coincidence at all Libby is found dead after meeting PR. He had already conducted serious crimes. You cannot normalise this behaviour. My partner had me nursing our youngest and rocking our eldest to sleep and saw little action for a while but he did not disappear into the streets at night for hours on end, terrorise other women, masturbate on streets, open other people’s windows, or steal items from their homes. MOO
 
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  • #589
Hi @tedtink

i have found it strange that whilst he has sought trophies from previous crimes and has mentioned how this excites him, he didn’t take a trophy from this encounter. For example if he had committed murder, he could have taken her necklace, or something else from about her person. I think, if we are to believe his version, that it’s possible that he went back to see if, indeed, her underwear had been left there in the vicinity, or something. That would fit with what we know about him. Also possible that he went to reimagine the sexual encounter. He seems to return to the same areas. MOO

I would agree with this, he had already been there once that night and probably numerous other occasions previously too. He did have a habit of returning to old scenes of crime, to either maybe get another view of his victims or even replay his crimes in his mind. Not that this is exactly why I think he did but as a possibility.
 
  • #590
"You must not convict him on either offence only because he lied."

From the judge

Quite damaging to the prosecution case imo
 
  • #591
I agree. Of course we have not heard everything mentioned in court but look how we all differ in opinion. I think the jury will be the same. MOO

I think if the jury come back quickly we can be sure it will be guilty to both counts, the longer they take the less sure I will be that they will find him guilty on Murder.

At this point I do think they will return with guilty on both counts, pretty quickly. Perhaps within an hour or two.
 
  • #592
It’s difficult not to look further into the psyche of PR. think a great deal about his behaviour is ‘unusual’, surreal almost, very emotionally detached. Actions such as not internet searching for Libby’s disappearance in the days afterwards or roaming (predatory on) the streets again hours after he attacked her do not, I think, imply his innocence, rather adds to the level of detachment, cold planning and harm intended.

I fully appreciate the different points of view on the possibility of him not being guilty of murder, and agree the timing is tight, but I still think a man of that psychological disposition and physical ability/agility is able to rape and kill, and dispose of Libby (pains me to write it) in minutes. Also transfer her to the river.

It’s hard not to write this without sharing an experience I am currently subjected to. Albeit on a very low level, I have just recently reported a man who my partner and I hired to clean our gutters before Christmas. Very well recommended firm, good reviews, two colleagues sent to us who were very polite and pleasant, waved to my children etc. I thought nothing more of it until Christmas Eve when I received an anonymous WhatsApp message wishing me a happy Christmas. Then another one an hour later saying hi again, then another one with an emoji with the tongue sticking out. Two hours later he sent a photo of himself in bed. I did not respond to any of the next 14 messages sent over the next 2 weeks. Albeit ‘harmless’ ‘hello hun’ messages, (as a QC like Saxby would have it) but they were relentless. And intimidating. I do not know this man. A man I’ve never met before or said more than a few words to when he was at my home doing the job we’d paid him to do. I also got 5 prank calls from him (I presume it was him) of breathing down the phone then hanging up. My point is, some men out there, some women, cross boundaries. And are clearly not put off by no response. I felt scared that he’d been in our house, used the toilet (cringe) looked at my bedroom, looked at my children, and actively sought to get my phone number from his colleague/a file. He was not at all deterred by me asking to stop messaging either, in fact to this day I can still see he hadn’t actually read it. As if to still hold control. Very strange, worrying. I was very upset about it all and felt worried to go out. He’d clearly looked at my social media too judging by some of his messages. I’ve reported him to the police. They can’t do much other than give me a case reference. Even my partner said they can’t do anything unless he “ramps it up”. I don’t want him to ramp it up!!! He should be locked up now!!! God knows how many other women he is/has harassed.

Sorry, rant over. But that sort of behaviour and ‘entitlement’ all starts somewhere. No coincidence he’s in employment up a ladder where he can look into windows. No coincidence at all Libby is found dead after meeting PR. He had already conducted serious crimes. You cannot normalise this behaviour. My partner had me nursing our youngest and rocking our eldest to sleep and saw little action for a while but he did not disappear into the streets at night for hours on end, terrorise other women, masturbate on streets, open other people’s windows, or burgle their homes. MOO
Thank you for sharing your personal story.
 
  • #593
It’s difficult not to look further into the psyche of PR. think a great deal about his behaviour is ‘unusual’, surreal almost, very emotionally detached. Actions such as not internet searching for Libby’s disappearance in the days afterwards or roaming (predatory on) the streets again hours after he attacked her do not, I think, imply his innocence, rather adds to the level of detachment, cold planning and harm intended.

I fully appreciate the different points of view on the possibility of him not being guilty of murder, and agree the timing is tight, but I still think a man of that psychological disposition and physical ability/agility is able to rape and kill, and dispose of Libby (pains me to write it) in minutes. Also transfer her to the river.

It’s hard not to write this without sharing an experience I am currently subjected to. Albeit on a very low level, I have just recently reported a man who my partner and I hired to clean our gutters before Christmas. Very well recommended firm, good reviews, two colleagues sent to us who were very polite and pleasant, waved to my children etc. I thought nothing more of it until Christmas Eve when I received an anonymous WhatsApp message wishing me a happy Christmas. Then another one an hour later saying hi again, then another one with an emoji with the tongue sticking out. Two hours later he sent a photo of himself in bed. I did not respond to any of the next 14 messages sent over the next 2 weeks. Albeit ‘harmless’ ‘hello hun’ messages, (as a QC like Saxby would have it) but they were relentless. And intimidating. I do not know this man. A man I’ve never met before or said more than a few words to when he was at my home doing the job we’d paid him to do. I also got 5 prank calls from him (I presume it was him) of breathing down the phone then hanging up. My point is, some men out there, some women, cross boundaries. And are clearly not put off by no response. I felt scared that he’d been in our house, used the toilet (cringe) looked at my bedroom, looked at my children, and actively sought to get my phone number from his colleague/a file. He was not at all deterred by me asking to stop messaging either, in fact to this day I can still see he hadn’t actually read it. As if to still hold control. Very strange, worrying. I was very upset about it all and felt worried to go out. He’d clearly looked at my social media too judging by some of his messages. I’ve reported him to the police. They can’t do much other than give me a case reference. Even my partner said they can’t do anything unless he “ramps it up”. I don’t want him to ramp it up!!! He should be locked up now!!! God knows how many other women he is/has harassed.

Sorry, rant over. But that sort of behaviour and ‘entitlement’ all starts somewhere. No coincidence he’s in employment up a ladder where he can look into windows. No coincidence at all Libby is found dead after meeting PR. He had already conducted serious crimes. You cannot normalise this behaviour. My partner had me nursing our youngest and rocking our eldest to sleep and saw little action for a while but he did not disappear into the streets at night for hours on end, terrorise other women, masturbate on streets, open other people’s windows, or burgle their homes. MOO
So sorry to hear that it must have been awful. It is the fact that somebody like that and PR can do it to see the fear that is important.

It really annoyed me hearing that defence lawyer minimizing it! We heard victim impact statements when he was convicted. They were terrified.

If I'd had to defend the creep I'd have bulls@@@@@d along the lines of PR didn't realise what effect it was having, he was mortified etc rather than diminishing what his victims went thru. Still be a lie but better than that

I agree with you 100% about his psychological disposition / ability and agility that night. He was 24, fit, strong, 14 stone against somebody who could barely walk! He knew what he was doing.
 
  • #594
"You must not convict him on either offence only because he lied."

From the judge

Quite damaging to the prosecution case imo
She said 'only' because he lied.

Nobody would ever go to prison if we couldn't convict them because they lied.
 
  • #595
Hi @tedtink

i have found it strange that whilst he has sought trophies from previous crimes and has mentioned how this excites him, he didn’t take a trophy from this encounter. For example if he had committed murder, he could have taken her necklace, or something else from about her person. I think, if we are to believe his version, that it’s possible that he went back to see if, indeed, her underwear had been left there in the vicinity, or something. That would fit with what we know about him. Also possible that he went to reimagine the sexual encounter. He seems to return to the same areas. MOO
He hasn't always sought trophies tho. Sometimes he leaves them. On doors or windows usually. Or sometimes wrapped up in a condom.

You're accounting only for his thefts not his voyeurism and public masturbation.

And he was engaging in both in the days running up to Libby. He has no constant MO
 
  • #596
It’s difficult not to look further into the psyche of PR. think a great deal about his behaviour is ‘unusual’, surreal almost, very emotionally detached. Actions such as not internet searching for Libby’s disappearance in the days afterwards or roaming (predatory on) the streets again hours after he attacked her do not, I think, imply his innocence, rather adds to the level of detachment, cold planning and harm intended.

I fully appreciate the different points of view on the possibility of him not being guilty of murder, and agree the timing is tight, but I still think a man of that psychological disposition and physical ability/agility is able to rape and kill, and dispose of Libby (pains me to write it) in minutes. Also transfer her to the river.

It’s hard not to write this without sharing an experience I am currently subjected to. Albeit on a very low level, I have just recently reported a man who my partner and I hired to clean our gutters before Christmas. Very well recommended firm, good reviews, two colleagues sent to us who were very polite and pleasant, waved to my children etc. I thought nothing more of it until Christmas Eve when I received an anonymous WhatsApp message wishing me a happy Christmas. Then another one an hour later saying hi again, then another one with an emoji with the tongue sticking out. Two hours later he sent a photo of himself in bed. I did not respond to any of the next 14 messages sent over the next 2 weeks. Albeit ‘harmless’ ‘hello hun’ messages, (as a QC like Saxby would have it) but they were relentless. And intimidating. I do not know this man. A man I’ve never met before or said more than a few words to when he was at my home doing the job we’d paid him to do. I also got 5 prank calls from him (I presume it was him) of breathing down the phone then hanging up. My point is, some men out there, some women, cross boundaries. And are clearly not put off by no response. I felt scared that he’d been in our house, used the toilet (cringe) looked at my bedroom, looked at my children, and actively sought to get my phone number from his colleague/a file. He was not at all deterred by me asking to stop messaging either, in fact to this day I can still see he hadn’t actually read it. As if to still hold control. Very strange, worrying. I was very upset about it all and felt worried to go out. He’d clearly looked at my social media too judging by some of his messages. His firm were horrified after I called them about it. I’ve reported him to the police. They can’t do much other than give me a case reference. Even my partner said they can’t do anything unless he “ramps it up”. I don’t want him to ramp it up!!! He should be locked up now!!! God knows how many other women he is/has harassed.

Sorry, rant over. But that sort of behaviour and ‘entitlement’ all starts somewhere. No coincidence he’s in employment up a ladder where he can look into windows. No coincidence at all Libby is found dead after meeting PR. He had already conducted serious crimes. You cannot normalise this behaviour. My partner had me nursing our youngest and rocking our eldest to sleep and saw little action for a while but he did not disappear into the streets at night for hours on end, terrorise other women, masturbate on streets, open other people’s windows, or steal items from their homes. MOO

Sounds horrific.
Keep a diary, keep reporting to Police and I would report to his employer, also a potential data protection breach for getting your phone number.
 
  • #597
So sorry to hear that it must have been awful. It is the fact that somebody like that and PR can do it to see the fear that is important.

It really annoyed me hearing that defence lawyer minimizing it! We heard victim impact statements when he was convicted. They were terrified.

If I'd had to defend the creep I'd have bulls@@@@@d along the lines of PR didn't realise what effect it was having, he was mortified etc rather than diminishing what his victims went thru. Still be a lie but better than that

I agree with you 100% about his psychological disposition / ability and agility that night. He was 24, fit, strong, 14 stone against somebody who could barely walk! He knew what he was doing.

Thank you @Newthoughts. Sorry yes, long post, I just meant that sadly ‘harmless’ little ‘problems’ DO escalate; PR is proof of that. He may very well have started at just, by chance, (I’m still giving him the benefit of the doubt!?) walking past a house where a couple were having sex, and it excited him...but he then delves deeper into his inner self and it’s there; the like/need to seek it out, to watch, intimidate, scare...harm, at the cost of other people’s well-being. It’s in him. And he acted on it god knows how many times. He didn’t wish to help Libby. At all.
 
  • #598
She said 'only' because he lied.

Nobody would ever go to prison if we couldn't convict them because they lied.

thats exactly how I saw it....she is saying look at all of the evidence and make your decision based on everything you have heard.
 
  • #599
Sounds horrific.
Keep a diary, keep reporting to Police and I would report to his employer, also a potential data protection breach for getting your phone number.
Thank you @tedtink, yes have kept a record of everything and forgot to say I’d informed his employer too.
 
  • #600
If I was on the jury I would have no doubts about convicting him on both counts.
Me either. I would say guilty on both. However seeing how we differ on WS, I can see how the jurors might. MOO
 
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