UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #23

[Newthoughts]

What witness wouldn't come forward and say anything, even anonymously, once it was made public that Libby was missing?

Re BBM - SA and several others have said that screaming students want a rarity round there AND as he saw only a mam leaving - no girl/woman in sight he likely wouldn't jump straight to the conclusion that a woman had been murdered. Most brains don't work that way ... just like few people bother to call police either. They deliberate if should they call 101 or 999 then if they should call at all, reasoning often that 'it was probably nothing' and most often that 'someone else will have called'.

I agree - nobody expects to hear somebody being murdered.

I agree that whatever applies to SA not calling it in straight away also applies to the man he saw who would also have heard the screams.

We have a witness statement from SA but nothing at all from this man. So SA did report it when further info was there. The man didn't

 

[mrazda71]

Just revisiting the early media reports when Libby went missing and the reporting of SA witnessing the screams. He says that he woke at 12:15 and heard screaming 7 or 8 times with gaps of about 30 secs in between - he states the screams went on for about FIFTEEN minutes, and then he saw a man leaving the park.

hmmm does it feel like it has been adjusted to fit a little to anyone else?

Girl heard screaming in park just minutes after Libby Squire vanished


Libby Squire disappearance: 'Eerie' screaming heard as student vanishes

Rather than being 'made to fit', it's more likely that what we're hearing at trial is evidence from SA's statement that he gave to police and what was in the tabloids was exaggerated by either SA & 'journalist' or both for a 'good story'.

I don't feel that we can discredit SA's testimony based on that.

 

[NottReds50]

Completely agree with this. This is a key issue which throws the prosecution case into doubt. The fact the prosecution did not call the other witnesses who heard the screams makes it look as though they are selecting evidence to suit only the scenario they want the jury to believe. They might have been better including them I feel and leaving it for the jury to interpret.

BBM

For what reason? To implicate a man that might not have murdered someone and keep them in our already crowned prison system?

 

[Sooty]

What witness wouldn't come forward and say anything, even anonymously, once it was made public that Libby was missing?

Re BBM - SA and several others have said that screaming students want a rarity round there AND as he saw only a mam leaving - no girl/woman in sight he likely wouldn't jump straight to the conclusion that a woman had been murdered. Most brains don't work that way ... just like few people bother to call police either. They deliberate if should they call 101 or 999 then if they should call at all, reasoning often that 'it was probably nothing' and most often that 'someone else will have called'.

An example might be someone who couldn’t speak English very well.

As I have suggested, if you don’t question (at the time of hearing a woman screaming) the remotest possibility of a life in danger, it is likely that the screams didn’t indicate that immediacy.

 

[JosieJo]

Completely agree with this. This is a key issue which throws the prosecution case into doubt. The fact the prosecution did not call the other witnesses who heard the screams makes it look as though they are selecting evidence to suit only the scenario they want the jury to believe. They might have been better including them I feel and leaving it for the jury to interpret.

Yes it gave the opportunity for the defence to point that out

 

[NorthernSoul]

Have locals described the area normally busy at that time? Genuine question cos I've missed that and the yeast factory footage looked very quiet.

Yes. In the article in the Mirror I mentioned above re the man running it states, "Locals say the park is always full of youngsters drinking and taking drugs, so unusual sounds tend to be ignored." There was also the gentleman who commented on here some days ago who has an allotment near the park who stated numerous times that the park was used for buying/selling drugs and other activities!

 

[Newthoughts]

I completely understand and appreciate your point. The timings of the (different?) screams certainly cast some doubt. Reasonable doubt? I will absolutely put my hands up to admitting I would lock PR up forever whatever the evidence. Partly emotionally led, yes, partly on his previous convictions and a person such as him being the last person to see Libby alive. The lies, yes, and his attitude and behaviour since evidence being put to him that she was a) found, b) found with his semen in her. This is all conjecture, and my gut/heart feeling. I’ll admit that. I am fully aware that this does not, and should not, convict PR if ALL the evidence cannot categorically place him there at the time of Libby dying/her death. But for me, he caused the trauma and harm that led to Libby’s death. It’s daft; every day I still hope Libby will be found alive and well and go home to her parents, or that a big piece of undeniable evidence will be found that will give her family the conviction and peace they need.Moo

I think the biggest issue with the screaming is that neither witness heard two sets of screams.

Neither witness heard screams coming from where PR claims Libby was screaming.

One witness saw a man. That man has not come forward - even anonymously.

Therefore I think considering the rest of the evidence becomes very important if you're looking to allay reasonable doubts rather than considering one piece in total isolation Particular PRs behaviour before and after and the lies he chose to tell.

Paradoxically I think if PR had said he'd taken Libby someway into the park and much closer to the river - it would have made the misadventure defence slightly credible.

Although on everything else I'd think he was guilty - that would have introduced doubts for me. But he didn't and so I find misadventure from where he claims to have left her very difficult to accept.

 

[HollyHunter9]

I understand there's a lot of confusion over the witness timings, but witnesses are notoriously unreliable, it was the middle of the night,they had all been woken up, half asleep, i know if I'm woken up in the night from deep sleep it takes a while for my brain to kick in and the 'fuzziness' of sleep to wear off. If SA did not hear the later screams at 12.30 then equally why did the other witnesses not hear the earlier screams at 12.14 that SA heard? The likelihood is they all heard the same screams but because of the reasons I have outlined above the timings have become blurred. JMO.

 

[Mommysleuth11]

I completely understand and appreciate your point. The timings of the (different?) screams certainly cast some doubt. Reasonable doubt? I will absolutely put my hands up to admitting I would lock PR up forever whatever the evidence. Partly emotionally led, yes, partly on his previous convictions and a person such as him being the last person to see Libby alive. The lies, yes, and his attitude and behaviour since evidence being put to him that she was a) found, b) found with his semen in her. This is partly conjecture, and my gut/heart feeling. I’ll admit that. But for me, he caused the trauma and harm that led to Libby’s death. It’s daft; every day I still hope Libby will be found alive and well and go home to her parents, or that a big piece of undeniable evidence will be found that will give her family the conviction and peace they need.Moo

I absolutely agree he is ultimately responsible for whatever fate became Libby that night, his intentions towards her were never honourable and that is plain for anyone to see.

 

[mrazda71]

An example might be someone who couldn’t speak English very well.

As I have suggested, if you don’t question (at the time of hearing a woman screaming) the remotest possibility of a life in danger, it is likely that the screams didn’t indicate that immediacy.

We can agree to disagree.

 

[NorthernSoul]

BBM

For what reason? To implicate a man that might not have murdered someone and keep them in our already crowned prison system?

No. They are putting their case. Then the defence puts their case. Each will present the facts they feel will enhance and support their case. The prosecution are not doing anything wrong by doing this; I'm simply saying it is interesting they chose to exclude the two other witnesses to the screams because the timeline does not fit.

 

[Tortoise]

BBM

For what reason? To implicate a man that might not have murdered someone and keep them in our already crowned prison system?

I think it might be because they feel they have a duty to test the strength of the evidence since he would be going to trial for rape. JMO

 

[Skigh]

Yes. In the article in the Mirror I mentioned above re the man running it states, "Locals say the park is always full of youngsters drinking and taking drugs, so unusual sounds tend to be ignored." There was also the gentleman who commented on here some days ago who has an allotment near the park who stated numerous times that the park was used for buying/selling drugs and other activities!

I can quite believe on a mild evening /night there would be youngsters around drinking and people persuing other activities.
However I do not think that would be happening on a freezing cold night at midnight.

 

[Newthoughts]

Yes. In the article in the Mirror I mentioned above re the man running it states, "Locals say the park is always full of youngsters drinking and taking drugs, so unusual sounds tend to be ignored." There was also the gentleman who commented on here some days ago who has an allotment near the park who stated numerous times that the park was used for buying/selling drugs and other activities!

I must admit that the British tabloids are not really a good source of credible info.

I don't know that park but I know drug activity and youngsters partying in my local park tends to move elsewhere in the depths of winter. Possibly because the chances of one party or the other exploiting the dark and isolation to hit the other over the head and nick everything is far higher. But that isn't anywhere near Hull so I can't speak for their drug crime.

The defence haven't made much of the busy park angle tho. I'd have thought they would.

 

[Tortoise]

I understand there's a lot of confusion over the witness timings, but witnesses are notoriously unreliable, it was the middle of the night,they had all been woken up, half asleep, i know if I'm woken up in the night from deep sleep it takes a while for my brain to kick in and the 'fuzziness' of sleep to wear off. If SA did not hear the later screams at 12.30 then equally why did the other witnesses not hear the earlier screams at 12.14 that SA heard? The likelihood is they all heard the same screams but because of the reasons I have outlined above the timings have become blurred. JMO.

Only SA was woken up. It wasn't stated that the two Claremont witnesses had been asleep.

 

[NorthernSoul]

I think the biggest issue with the screaming is that neither witness heard two sets of screams.

Neither witness heard screams coming from where PR claims Libby was screaming.

One witness saw a man. That man has not come forward - even anonymously.

Therefore I think considering the rest of the evidence becomes very important if you're looking to allay reasonable doubts rather than considering one piece in total isolation Particular PRs behaviour before and after and the lies he chose to tell.

Paradoxically I think if PR had said he'd taken Libby someway into the park and much closer to the river - it would have made the misadventure defence slightly credible.

Although on everything else I'd think he was guilty - that would have introduced doubts for me. But he didn't and so I find misadventure from where he claims to have left her very difficult to accept.

I do agree with you on PR saying they did not go into the park in some ways not helping his defence. This is another issue that causes me still to be conflicted. It is possible they did go into the park and still he left Libby alive and, as you say, then it would be more credible that she subsequently fell into the river. So it does seem to me unlikely although not impossible that Libby went of her own accord into the park and then fell into the river but then on the other hand we have the complete lack of any forensic evidence of murder, complete lack of CCTV evidence of murder and the fact that the scream timings do not seem to tally.

 

[Catsarse]

I think an issue with the witness statements is their perception of time (I’m ignoring them checking their phones in this comment!)

A minute, sat looking out of your window is normally much longer than you think. If someone says they heard screams for 15 mins without checking the time, I would say you’ll over estimate the length of time generally.
If you put your phone on a one minute timer, especially at night when there’s no birds/traffic etc to watch, it feels quite a long time to just sit looking out of a window.

I’m a right dolly daydream and in the olden days of going out for a meal (remember those days?!) I would swear 15 minutes had passed by when in reality it was closer to 45-60 mins
But when sat in the silence of a dark room? I feel you’d think the timescales were much longer than perhaps they actually were.
Even saying screams heard for 10-15 seconds at a time, that’s actually a long time for a scream. Try even just breathing out while counting the time. 10-15 seconds is actually quite a long time.

Sorry for the long write up, my musings took flight! All moo imo etc etc

 

[Tortoise]

I'm reposting the new poll for anyone joining the thread this morning who hasn't read back through last night's postings

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/new-poll-libby-squire-uk.558361/#post-16608375

 

[NorthernSoul]

I must admit that the British tabloids are not really a good source of credible info.

I don't know that park but I know drug activity and youngsters partying in my local park tends to move elsewhere in the depths of winter. Possibly because the chances of one party or the other exploiting the dark and isolation to hit the other over the head and nick everything is far higher. But that isn't anywhere near Hull so I can't speak for their drug crime.

The defence haven't made much of the busy park angle tho. I'd have thought they would.

So do you think the reporter just decided to completely fabricate the fact that local people are known to frequent the park making noise? As well as the person on this forum who has an allotment there? Why do you think they would do that? Genuine question. Just interested. Sometimes we do have to consider all evidence without letting our preconceptions shoot them down in flames.

 

[Miss_French]

BBM
He’s used to hearing noise/screams from the park and didn’t place any significance on them

He had no reason at the time to think the man he saw had anything to do with any attack as he wasn’t aware that one might have taken place.

He perhaps didn’t become immediately aware of police activity at ORPF as that was conducted during daylight hours when he was at work.

He wasn’t aware that someone had gone missing nearby

But SA did think these screams were unusual, and he didn't turn over and go back to sleep, he got out of bed and looked out of his window. He went to the toilet after the screams ended and when he returned he didn't go straight back to bed, he still looked out if his window. Whilst he might not think it was murder, if you hear a woman's desperate screams in a park that are different to the usual student noise, and you see a man leaving the park, why would you do nothing? And yes, I've phoned the police on various occasions, and things have escalated shortly after, like the couple arguing and the guy then took a piece of 2' by 4' to a parked car...

"Then I heard the screams again and when I looked I couldn’t see anyone on the park. The screams were enough to make me think, ‘What could that be?’ But it was the pattern - they weren’t constant and that’s what sort of stood out for me. They sounded like desperation." (BBM).

https://www-hulldailymail-co-uk.cdn.../libby-squire-trial-desperate-screams-4912170