UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #23

[Lyall0814]

This case caught my attention while I was browsing Daily Mail in Internet - I try to pracitise English every day ha ha. When I saw the headline "Polish Butcher..." my jaw literaly dropped!!! I immediately went to Websleuths and have read every post here since then. There is nothing about this case in Polish press so I rely on Internet news in English. I have only you dear posters to talk about this dreadful case. My family and friends consider my interest in true crime as morbid and freaky. Sigh.

It is morbid and freaky, but we're all guilty of that

 

[mrazda71]

I suppose another way of looking at it is ..for me ...there are things absent that in this same scene would have helped ne be more sure ..even without a cause of death ...for example

Blood on his clothes
A liking of violent or rape
Googling about bodies in water
Googling around murder sentences
Disposal of his clothes rather than washing
Previous violence

I'm not saying the absence of these mean he didn't fo it
I'm giving examples of things that in other trials have helped me be sure

And just to point out again I'm not saying he didn't kill her or will not be found guilty

BBM if he'd left this evidence we'd be thinking he's a complete novice, an accidental rapist and killer ... a noob!

 

[Ruthbullock]

The ongoing screams don't tally with death caused during rape - if he was raping her at 12:17 what had he been doing there since 12:11?

None of the scream witnesses help the prosecution's case, it's not just eliminating the Claremont witnesses. IMO

I agree and I think this has caused me difficulties ever since. The pathologist report and other evidence could have been presented by either side and used to argue the opposing sides. The prosecution knowing all the evidence that was going to be presented had to try and shoe horn SAs testimony to fit their case by asking him was the man running (they must have anticipated timings were logistically tight to ask that question)

 

[JosieJo]

BBM if he'd left this evidence we'd be thinking he's a complete novice, an accidental rapist and killer ... a noob!

Yet so many people are caught out by these things ..and not just people who are noobs

The previous Googling of rape or known violence won't be relevant to how clever he is as would be pre crime

There must be a lot of Noobs in court

 

[Winterbells]

Why does Libby need to be running? She doesn't have to be being chased to be screaming.

Indeed. And why would PR need to be chasing her? If he's already raped her, what further purpose does she serve?

 

[Scorpiette]

Yet so many people are caught out by these things ..and not just people who are noobs

The previous Googling of rape or known violence won't be relevant to how clever he is as would be pre crime

There must be a lot of Noobs in court

Excuse my ignorance, what is a Noob?

 

[Steve2021]

@Lestrade said...

"If anyone thinks that is the most likely occurence of that night and the time following then I do not understand that thought process"

Thank you so much for taking the time to set that out so eloquently. I think it serves to remind us how desperately sad this all is.

I don't imagine there is one person here who believes that is most likely or even likely or probably even particularly close to what really happened. It's simply we all have differing views on the matter of proof.

I think the judge has essentially directed the jury that their task is to form an opinion on the evidence in its totality. That means considering each piece of evidence, but with the purpose of being able to form a common sense opinion from all the pieces put together. In other words don't get totally bogged down on individual pieces, so you can't see the wood from the trees.

 

[Tortoise]

I'd say he could have frog-marched her into the park with his hand over her mouth. Say 3-4 minutes getting her near the lake where she was heard, so that he won't be seen out of windows.

Rapes her and then she starts to scream and continues screaming as he walks away.

MOO

 

[Tortoise]

Excuse my ignorance, what is a Noob?

A newbie.

 

[Skigh]

Wonder what is happening it is nearly 40 minutes since the last update saying court was back after lunch.

 

[jamjim]

14:38
Manslaughter verdict an option

Justice Lambert has told the jury it has occurred to her manslaughter is an option for the verdict but it has not been explained.

She said: “There is no count of manslaughter on the indictment but it can be returned as an alternative verdict to murder.

“That would arise if you were sure Pawel Relowicz assaulted Libby Squire and it caused her death in the sense it made one or more contributions to her death and whether he intended it to.

"If the answer is no, the verdict will be not guilty of murder but you should consider whether that person intended to cause some harm and then if you are sure of that you will return a guilty verdict of manslaughter."

Libby Squire murder trial updates as judge sums up evidence

 

[Tortoise]

Oooh!

 

[mrazda71]

Excuse my ignorance, what is a Noob?

Sorry ... shortened, slang term for 'Newbie'

 

[Newthoughts]

I suppose another way of looking at it is ..for me ...there are things absent that in this same scene would have helped me be more sure ..even without a cause of death ...for example

Blood on his clothes
A liking of violent or rape
Googling about bodies in water
Googling around murder sentences
Disposal of his clothes rather than washing
Previous violence

I'm not saying the absence of these mean he didn't do it
I'm giving examples of things that in other trials have helped me be sure

And just to point out again I'm not saying he didn't kill her or will not be found guilty

Why would that help? He's been in Hull a long time. I've only been there for a few visits. I've seen enough of the river in the city and the estuary to recognise it is tidal.

Wouldn't not having my clothes look more suspicious than just washing them? Washing is pretty good and forensics said the smelt of washing powder

Are all killers violent before their offence. His previous crimes suggest he likes fear. Why watch when you can get a lot of what you want outside

Drone footage of the park and going there earlier are important

 

[jamjim]

14:43
Jury retiring to consider its verdict

The jury is now being sworn out and members will now consider their verdict.

Libby Squire murder trial updates as judge sums up evidence

 

[Newthoughts]

The law says you have to be sure not look at probability

It may be that people are sure aswell as having thoughts on probability...not saying thats wrong ...as long as the person is sure

You can never be sure you to be reasonably sure and that means what is most likely given the evidence

 

[jamjim]

Aaaaah. Now we wait...

 

[tedtink]

14:38
Manslaughter verdict an option

Justice Lambert has told the jury it has occurred to her manslaughter is an option for the verdict but it has not been explained.

She said: “There is no count of manslaughter on the indictment but it can be returned as an alternative verdict to murder.

“That would arise if you were sure Pawel Relowicz assaulted Libby Squire and it caused her death in the sense it made one or more contributions to her death and whether he intended it to.

"If the answer is no, the verdict will be not guilty of murder but you should consider whether that person intended to cause some harm and then if you are sure of that you will return a guilty verdict of manslaughter."

Libby Squire murder trial updates as judge sums up evidence

Well done Judge.
Good call.

 

[tedtink]

Aaaaah. Now we wait...

Thanks so much for your updates.

 

[mrjitty]

Oooh!

I think this is the verdict I would go for.

He is responsible - I am just not sure whether it was direct or more indirect