UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #23

[Joolz1975]

No - unfortunately - it will all run concurrently.

So, the only figure that is going to count is the highest one, which will be for the manslaughter charge.
He might get 16 - 18 years, which will commute to 9.

Cant the judge set a minimum tariff Alyce?

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Oh he will absolutely. He will be smirking all the way back to his prison cell.

I find it so disappointing that the Judge is offering this option now, rather than waiting to see if the Jury can reach a guilty of murder verdict ( which I believe they could have done ). I think having the lighter option available might make them waver and give him the lower charge.
I find it so sad, and I don't think this is justice for Libby. As Mrazda said, he is the reason she is dead and not setting up home with her boyfriend and enjoying her first job, post university. He is the reason her family will never see her marry or have children or travel round the world or achieve something wonderful in her work life.
I do hope we deport him back to Poland as soon as his sentence is finished. And, equally, I feel very sorry for the Polish people who will be faced with this vile predator in their lives.

Hang on, I’m lost. So the judge could have said manslaughter was an option later on, if the jury were stuck? I didn’t know that. Yes, that’s what she should have done.

 

[Tortoise]

The word occurred could be the way the journalist phrased her remark rather than her actual words.

I cannot see her sitting there and saying ' by the way ,it has just occurred to me you could consider manslaughter'.

 

[ChiCubs2016]

Thank you for joining us and caring about someone in our country. Most of us here will never forget Libby. You’ve done well to keep up with the time difference!

Thank you! It helps that I am an early bird! Up at 4:30am, 9:30am your time! Libby was such a beautiful young lady. So tragic.

 

[Alyce]

Hang on, I’m lost. So the judge could have said manslaughter was an option later on, if the jury were stuck? I didn’t know that. Yes, that’s what she should have done.

I honestly don't know Cags if it can be added later, in the same way that a majority verdict can be offered as a later option.. I just hoped it would have been held back to see how the deliberations went.

Am thinking of the policeman who was murdered recently. Horrific death. I thought ( and may be wrong ) that the only charge was murder at his trial but that it was later changed ( ie after Jury were out ) to allow a manslaughter option.

I'm just adding an extra MOO in here just to be sure.

 

[Tortoise]

What happens if half the jury thinks murder and the other half thinks manslaughter? Hung jury and retrial I suppose. Yes she should have waited to instruct them, if she could.

 

[Joolz1975]

Hang on, I’m lost. So the judge could have said manslaughter was an option later on, if the jury were stuck? I didn’t know that. Yes, that’s what she should have done.

I thought they could but I must admit my knowledge if courtrooms mostly comes from TV shows! But I am almost sure I have seen this before where if they cant make a decision the manslaughter option is put to them.

 

[JosieJo]

It could still go murder yet .. depending on how the jury felt before her manslaughter comment

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I honestly don't know Cags if it can be added later, in the same way that a majority verdict can be offered as a later option.. I just hoped it would have been held back to see how the deliberations went.

Am thinking of the policeman who was murdered recently. Horrific death. I thought ( and may be wrong ) that the only charge was murder at his trial but that it was later changed ( ie after Jury were out ) to allow a manslaughter option.

I'm just adding an extra MOO in here just to be sure.

I’m really not sure, but we should know this!

I kinda assumed the jury had to have the options on the table before they went out, in which case I’m ok with manslaughter being an option. But otherwise, if it could have been offered purely because the jury was evenly split, then that’s what should have happened.

 

[Skigh]

Would the judge have to consult the prosecution and defence before she offered manslaughter as an option?

 

[Ruthbullock]

It is such a tragedy that with all the evidence the LE had (back in 2016 through to 2019) of an unidentified sexual predator (PR); the witness statements, the physical descriptions (an extremely good likeness one housemate drew in IMO), the neighbours knowledge, and even local hearsay, they could not tie it all together UNTIL a young woman died. That’s where I fully empathise with the frustration of knowing you’ve reported something awful that you’ve been subjected to, and yet sadly often is the case that nothing is/can be done in the ‘early days’ of harassment.

A genuine question (and I do believe that the LE acted swiftly and worked tirelessly to bring this case to court, as well as clearly providing wonderful support to Libby’s parents during an unimaginable time), but does anyone think there may/should be an inquiry into why PR was not already off the streets? Jmo.

Unfortunately there is a lot of similar incidents in the Hull area (and around the rest of the country), I can’t remember whether it was just before or just after LS went missing that there was an article about several similar cases being reported (not linked to PR) and even since this all occurred, it is still frequently in the press and not very often you read about the offender being captured.

 

[Tortoise]

I’m really not sure, but we should know this!

I kinda assumed the jury had to have the options on the table before they went out, in which case I’m ok with manslaughter being an option. But otherwise, if it could have been offered purely because the jury was evenly split, then that’s what should have happened.

Imagine a scenario where they came back after a day of deliberations and said not guilty for murder, but she hadn't yet given them the manslaughter option. I think you're right that it should all be on the table from the word go. But I kind of also think the defence should know about it before they close their case, otherwise it doesn't give them a chance to defend it (not really in this case though I don't think).

 

[Joolz1975]

Tried looking at the Andrew Harper trial which we know was definitely lowered to manslaughter but cant see at what stage this was offered.

 

[Newthoughts]

10 years for manslaughter - but I see @Skigh saying the Judge can still impose a life sentence - good!

Am patiently awaiting the verdict with you all....

But would a judge that hadn't let them at least deliberate murder first do that?

He must be delighted.

 

[Joolz1975]

Imagine a scenario where they came back after a day of deliberations and said not guilty for murder, but she hadn't yet given them the manslaughter option. I think you're right that it should all be on the table from the word go. But I kind of also think the defence should know about it before they close their case, otherwise it doesn't give them a chance to defend it (not really in this case though I don't think).

That makes more sense actually Tortoise. Maybe it has to be on the table before deliberations but they are told to consider the murder verdict fully before they look at the manslaughter charge and not to use it as a compromise unless they really cannot decide.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Imagine a scenario where they came back after a day of deliberations and said not guilty for murder, but she hadn't yet given them the manslaughter option. I think you're right that it should all be on the table from the word go. But I kind of also think the defence should know about it before they close their case, otherwise it doesn't give them a chance to defend it (not really in this case though I don't think).

I know! That’s what I mean, imagine! Does someone keep the judge up to date with how deliberations are going, so they can intervene if needs be?

 

[Newthoughts]

Tried looking at the Andrew Harper trial which we know was definitely lowered to manslaughter but cant see at what stage this was offered.

Ah yes where they 'accidentally' dragged him along the road not noticing. They got 16 and 13 years.

 

[Marg from Oz]

Many thanks @jamjim It sure has been a long ride. We just need to wait wait a little longer.

 

[Newthoughts]

That makes more sense actually Tortoise. Maybe it has to be on the table before deliberations but they are told to consider the murder verdict fully before they look at the manslaughter charge and not to use it as a compromise unless they really cannot decide.

But we know it will probably be a compromise rather than a proper decision. I hope they go for murder because it'll happen again

 

[Tortoise]

That makes more sense actually Tortoise. Maybe it has to be on the table before deliberations but they are told to consider the murder verdict fully before they look at the manslaughter charge and not to use it as a compromise unless they really cannot decide.

Oh yes, now I think about it they are given a verdict map. That is assuming the judge had one ready with manslaughter on it.

It's a flow chart and if they get to the 'no' part for murder they then consider the manslaughter option.