UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 *ARREST* #18

[JosieJo]

Thanks.

My problem with this is that the prosecution state its just over 350 meters ...so with a reasonable fitness walking speed of 1.4m per second thats a fraction over 4 minutes

 

[Cherwell]

From her photographs it appears as though she is left handed as
1. Her self-mutilation scars are all on the right arm, meaning she must have used her left hand to make them
2. She holds her glass in her left hand
Cutting and drinking are both usually done with the dominant hand

I don't think you can read too much into it, as in that kind of situation you would use whichever hand you were able to, and go for whatever you could reach. If you're right-handed but your right arm/hand is restrained or blocked, you would use your left hand, and vice versa. For example if he had grabbed her wrist.

 

[LucyRocket]

He was wearing jogging bottoms ,so no zip.

Oh my, I'm getting really confused now. I thought the prosecutor said that he is wearing jeans with 2 black bands on one leg, which will be significant

 

[Vera_dci]

Me too! Left -right , jogging bottoms or jeans.

 

[Alyce]

Regarding the short timespan.... I've just been chatting with a friend, we both live in Hull but are not from here originally. At the time Libby went missing she lived within the immediate area and had her back garden searched at the beginning, she said she didn't even know Oak Road Park or fields existed until it was highlighted in the news during her disappearance, but that after that she started taking her young child to the park there so has been there quite a few times. She has been following the trail too and says the timing doesn't concern her at all. She said you can reach the river from the carpark in around 1 minute and that it isn't as far as it looks on the maps.

Almost wish we could have that as a sticky post - great info.

 

[LucyRocket]

I don't think you can read too much into it, as in that kind of situation you would use whichever hand you were able to, and go for whatever you could reach. If you're right-handed but your right arm/hand is restrained or blocked, you would use your left hand, and vice versa. For example if he had grabbed her wrist.

Sure, but whenever you have the opportunity to fight you are going to prefer the dominant hand, it's instinctive. As she was left handed I would expect to see the injuries on his right side, which they are. Just specifics I'm used to looking for and so was waiting to hear in evidence

 

[Sooty]

15:14
Relowicz's first movements on January 31
The CCTV footage shows the silver Astra entering McDonald's on Cottingham Road at around 9.45pm on January 30. It can be seen in the footage leaving soon after.

The footage then moves to 8.37pm on January 31, where the Astra can be seen on Newland Avenue. Soon after, the car was caught on CCTV again at the Tesco petrol station on Hall Road.

Mr Wright said: "This footage is important because it confirms it was this defendant driving that vehicle that night. It also shows us the clothing he was wearing.

"When you watch this, please note his jeans that he is wearing and you will be able to see there are two black bands that circle the calf on the left leg of those jeans.

"As we watch through you will understand why this is important."

Pawel Relowicz on trial for murder of Hull student Libby Squire

yes it was jeans

 

[Vera_dci]

We have some gopro footage of the river and park from a very early thread. Might give us a good insight wuth regards to timings.

 

[Cherwell]

Sure, but whenever you have the opportunity to fight you are going to prefer the dominant hand, it's instinctive. As she was left handed I would expect to see the injuries on his right side, which they are. Just specifics I'm used to looking for and so was waiting to hear in evidence

Of course, but you can only use your dominant hand if it's free. I didn't know which hand she favoured, but if she had been right-handed I wouldn't dismiss the possibility that she used her left, that's all.

 

[HollyHunter9]

I've just had another thought regarding the condom. I wonder if the attack was so hurried he didn't have time use one in the moment, so part of the reasoning for putting her in the water would be to wash away that evidence (which didn't work). Then when he used the condom later on in the street he was alone and undisturbed and had time to put one on. I don't actually think the condom is used to keep the crime scene clean of his DNA...i feel it is more part of his bizarre perverse ritual. In his previous crimes he left condoms behind at most of scenes full of his DNA...i think that is part of the thrill...that it is found afterwards and who ever finds it would be shocked and scared. So I'm starting to wonder if because the attack was so hurried with Libby he didn't get do his full routine/ritual and so wasn't fully satisfied, perhaps like someone else mentioned he went back later to re-live it and this time used the condom. I hope this is making sense?

 

[Officer Dibble]

Possibly that he raped her and left her still alive but when he went back found her still there habing died from hypothermia and put her in the river believing he had killed her. No idea really and just a though but there are so many of them in my head at the moment

This is the conclusion I came to last night too.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

It was jeans:

“When you watch this, please note his jeans that he is wearing and you will be able to see there are two black bands that circle the calf on the left leg of those jeans. As we watch through you will understand why this is important."

Libby 'fought back as Pawel Relowicz raped her' murder trial hears

 

[Newthoughts]

I've just had another thought regarding the condom. I wonder if the attack was so hurried he didn't have time use one in the moment, so part of the reasoning for putting her in the water would be to wash away that evidence (which didn't work). Then when he used the condom later on in the street he was alone and undisturbed and had time to put one on. I don't actually think the condom is used to keep the crime scene clean of his DNA...i feel it is more part of his bizarre perverse ritual. In his previous crimes he left condoms behind at most of scenes full of his DNA...i think that is part of the thrill...that it is found afterwards and who ever finds it would be shocked and scared. So I'm starting to wonder if because the attack was so hurried with Libby he didn't get do his full routine/ritual and so wasn't fully satisfied, perhaps like someone else mentioned he went back later to re-live it and this time used the condom. I hope this is making sense?

But not all of his scenes. Lots where his calling card was directly onto windows and doors.

 

[mrazda71]

Finally caught up! Jeez you lot can talk

I've followed so many cases over the years and the trial comments are often the same 'I'm not sure it's enough to prove murder, don't think I'd convict on this evidence' etc but, I can't think of one yet that has been a shock not guilty.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

I think we have to keep in mind that we are hearing and seeing a snapshot of what happens in court. We get a journalists interpretation too of what's being said.

I'm sure the evidence is more more compelling when you're sat on the jury seeing and hearing it all and seeing victims loved ones, reading body language of the accused etc.

If you kidnapp someone, drive them to a park, rape them and leave them and they just happen to die from the consequences of your actions ... isn't that murder?

 

[Little Nicki]

My problem with this is that the prosecution state its just over 350 meters ...so with a reasonable fitness walking speed of 1.4m per second thats a fraction over 4 minutes

According to google earth it is 286 metres from the carpark to the river. I hope I have uploaded the image correctly.

 

[Officer Dibble]

I’m definitely no expert but I reckon she was pretty aware of what was happening when she was in his car and approached playing fields entrance. I’m sure here adrenaline kicks in and fight or flight starts which gets the blood flowing. Plus, there are signs she fought back which I wouldn’t say is typical of a person who is completely out of it and about to freeze to death any minute. So he either suffocates her or something like that or he throws her in the river while she’s still alive. I find it highly unlikely that she entered the river by herself. I’m sure some of these things will be explained better in court by actual experts but I don’t think there is as much doubt as people think but admittedly there is no “smoking gun” regarding the accusation of murder

Remember her mother said she was scared of the dark and of water. If he'd thrown her in the water and it was dark she would scream like mad if alive but the shock of the water would be quickly getting to her How long were her screams again? We assume she screamed when being raped but what if being flung into the water made her scream. Every time she came up for air she screamed until she could no more? Poor Libby whatever happened to her.

 

[Officer Dibble]

Oh my, I'm getting really confused now. I thought the prosecutor said that he is wearing jeans with 2 black bands on one leg, which will be significant

The black bands part interested me as we discussed at length in this thread from the footage of spider cam if he was wearing shorts and wellies or long trousers and boots. We could see a division of some sort. I wonder if the black bands were the division we were discussing.

 

[Cherwell]

I'm sure the evidence is more more compelling when you're sat on the jury seeing and hearing it all and seeing victims loved ones, reading body language of the accused etc.

Unfortunately this time this aspect will be greatly hampered by everyone presumably wearing masks except when actually speaking.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

The black bands part interested me as we discussed at length in this thread from the footage of spider cam if he was wearing shorts and wellies or long trousers and boots. We could see a division of some sort. I wonder if the black bands were the division we were discussing.

Yes we did, and I’ve just looked at the CCTV again and it’s clear now there are bands (actually looks like one band as it’s very blurry).

EDIT: forgot to add photo

 

[mrazda71]

Unfortunately this time this aspect will be greatly hampered by everyone presumably wearing masks except when actually speaking.

Not sure about greatly hampered, can't see the mouth area for a mask sure but, eyes say so much, sighing, fidgeting, looking bored, amused, looking away, becoming angry or upset will all still be seen.