UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 *ARREST* #19

[porkypies]

Where on earth is he getting that time from? That's an hour or two before he encountered Libby.

I know at least one chronic liar, and this sort of casual attendance to some details is always part of their story, a pretence at nonchalance, similar to telling police to check the cameras.
They demonstrate their 'innocence' by acting utterly unafraid of any of your evidence, they are also excellent actors and easily hoodwink and convince most people who know them.

 

[Newthoughts]

I guess but the trouble is it is wild speculation - we have no evidence of drugs/suicide

And she'd been signed off by the mental health teams before heading to uni! They felt she didn't need any more intervention.

 

[JusticeDT]

Maybe but apart from "evidence" being led in the form of wild speculation from counsel, how will the defence produce any actual evidence that Libby put herself in the river?

They don't have to prove it. They are defending....

 

[Newthoughts]

I guess but the trouble is it is wild speculation - we have no evidence of drugs/suicide

And she'd been signed off by the mental health teams before heading to uni! They felt she didn't need any more intervention. They're the experts.

 

[JusticeDT]

Maybe but apart from "evidence" being led in the form of wild speculation from counsel, how will the defence produce any actual evidence that Libby put herself in the river?

They don't have to prove it. They are defending....

 

[DiploRed]

How likely is it they were able to find evidence of drug use after she had been in water for 6 weeks? Sounds very very very unlikely to me if not impossible

 

[JusticeDT]

How likely is it they were able to find evidence of drug use after she had been in water for 6 weeks? Sounds very very very unlikely to me if not impossible

I wondered this

 

[Cherwell]

But I think it takes quite a long time to die of hypothermia unless she was thrown into a freezing cold river - she was only out from 11.30 to 12.17 at most. Plus getting into PRs warm car would have started to warm her up.

I was wondering this. She was in the taxi at 11.30 so we can knock off another 5 minutes for the drive home. She wasn't outside for more than about half an hour, but I don't know how long it takes to become hypothermic.

 

[JusticeDT]

I was wondering this. She was in the taxi at 11.30 so we can knock off another 5 minutes for the drive home. She wasn't outside for more than about half an hour, but I don't know how long it takes to become hypothermic.

The prosecution opening statement said
Mr Wright told the court that Professor Charles Deakin - a critical care NHS doctor - had reviewed all relevant evidence and concluded that Libby was “undoubtedly hypothermic” at the time of her death.

The prosecutor told the court: “As a result she would have had impaired judgement and problems with her coordination

 

[Newthoughts]

I was wondering this. She was in the taxi at 11.30 so we can knock off another 5 minutes for the drive home. She wasn't outside for more than about half an hour, but I don't know how long it takes to become hypothermic.

The expert critical care doctor said she was undoubtedly hypothermic at the time of death

He also said there were no post mortem signs that she'd died of it.

Then there are the screams that suddenly stop. Neither suicide nor hypothermia make you scream. He's got to explain those

From what I can gather you can start to become hypothermic quite quickly as body temp only needs to drop a bit - but it takes time for it to kill you as your body temperature needs to drop quite a lot more. And there will be signs at that point. Hopefully the experts will be able to elaborate.

 

[wilkela]

How likely is it they were able to find evidence of drug use after she had been in water for 6 weeks? Sounds very very very unlikely to me if not impossible

I thought finding his DNA in her body after 6 weeks in water would be impossible but as we see it wasn't (for me really strange but I'm not scientist ) so I wouldn't be surprise if they would be able find evidence of drug use .It looks like they have more sophisticated methods this days ;-)
here interesting article about DNA in sexual assault cases
Biological Evidence Management for DNA Analysis in Cases of Sexual Assault

 

[Offaly]

Yes - I remember there was a lot of discussion about all this back in the day, as some posters didn't believe that police necessarily had libby definitely in his car

They knew all along that he took her in the car, and of course he (foolishly) came up with a story to explain it. They have known he was lying all along - but they needed the body and the DNA

I would give anything to have seen PRs face when her body was recovered. Without a body he may well have gotten away with all this.

 

[Offaly]

Maybe but apart from "evidence" being led in the form of wild speculation from counsel, how will the defence produce any actual evidence that Libby put herself in the river?

They don't have to prove anything, just show reasonable doubt.

 

[Offaly]

The expert critical care doctor said she was undoubtedly hypothermic at the time of death

He also said there were no post mortem signs that she'd died of it.

Then there are the screams that suddenly stop. Neither suicide nor hypothermia make you scream. He's got to explain those

From what I can gather you can start to become hypothermic quite quickly as body temp only needs to drop a bit - but it takes time for it to kill you as your body temperature needs to drop quite a lot more. And there will be signs at that point. Hopefully the experts will be able to elaborate.

They'll probably argue that there are lots of screams etc heard in that area on club nights. Screaming won't be anything unusual. There will be lots of noises heard. I'm sure it was reported a woman also heard screams that night. They might show these were different screams at a different time maybe so it's not unusual.

 

[JusticeDT]

I had a quick look but some of the medical stuff is beyond me however I didn't see anything that made me think toxology was absolutely time critical so hopefully passage of time after death makes no difference

 

[JusticeDT]

I would give anything to have seen PRs face when her body was recovered. Without a body he may well have gotten away with all this.

And when he heard they recovered his semen

 

[mrjitty]

They don't have to prove it. They are defending....

They don't have to prove anything of course.

But contentions from counsel require an evidential foundation - otherwise they are mere speculation. So in practice, an evidential onus arises on the defence if they wish to convince the jury of a version - otherwise it is mere unsupported conjecture from counsel.

 

[Newthoughts]

They'll probably argue that there are lots of screams etc heard in that area on club nights. Screaming won't be anything unusual. There will be lots of noises heard. I'm sure it was reported a woman also heard screams that night. They might show these were different screams at a different time maybe so it's not unusual.

These screams fit the timing of the CCTV tho and the running man. It becomes harder to untie those two events

 

[porkypies]

I was wondering this. She was in the taxi at 11.30 so we can knock off another 5 minutes for the drive home. She wasn't outside for more than about half an hour, but I don't know how long it takes to become hypothermic.

Alcohol causes hypothermia because it dilates blood vessels and the body loses core heat whilst the person 'feels' warm on the outside, it's a common cause of death from hypothermia. So it's the amount and effect of alcohol that would be relevant, added to exposure to cold. Logic suggests you would need to get rid of the alcohol (hours) to reverse this and short periods of warming up would be no use.

 

[JosieJo]

Has there been any mention of the "yeast factory cctv" as it seems to read that cctv evidence is now complete?