Found Deceased UK - Lindsay Birbeck, 47, Accrington, 12 Aug 2019 *Arrest* #2

[Sillybilly]

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[Angleterre]

Have there been any other cases where some one else has been arrested as an accomplice after any length of time?

Happens regularly

 

[Angleterre]

It would be unlikely for LE to announce further arrests, unless it advances their objectives.

The previous arrest, was on the back of a CCTV release from LE. LE announced the arrest in that instance as they would have been aware of the public mood concerning safety, following LB's tragic death, as well as the possible risk to incorrectly identified persons.

In some instances, authorisation may be given to hold someone 'incommunicado'. This is when no one is informed of the arrest for a period of time, when to do so may obstruct the investigation or put others at risk of physical harm, e.g. evidence may be hidden, destroyed or other possible suspects may move elsewhere.

I agree with Whitehall 1212 here but I would just like to add that it’s very rare to hold someone ‘incommunicado ‘ these days and when it is done, primarily it’s in cases of Terrorism or where there is an imminent risk of serious consequences, injury and/or death or the destruction of irreplaceable and irretrievable evidence, more serious than is considered just ‘everyday evidence ‘ if you know what I mean? It has to be a very serious and/or risk of serious violence scenario for this right to be removed from the suspect and as soon as the risk has passed or been averted by whatever reason or means, then the suspect must be given his/her ‘rights’ as per PACE ( Police and criminal evidence act 1984).

 

[Angleterre]

It's so odd how different our two countries can be. Here in the US, LE shouts it to the rooftops when they make an arrest (or two or three). Then the press descends and we know the whole life story of said people within a day or two.

In the UK, it seems, we just get....crickets.

Yes you’re right about that and I know which system I prefer or would choose if I was the one awaiting trial.
It amazes me how in the USA, it’s almost akin to a soap opera at times, the way in which the Prosecution and the Defence ‘square’ up and ‘point score ‘ and ultimately can convince the public that a suspect is guilty before it’s even gone to trial or they certainly paint the suspect in a negative light and thus chance the fact that any subsequent jurors may have already mentally decided upon the suspects guilt prior to the commencement proper of the proceedings. I know jurors are asked if they have heard about the case or if they have formed any opinions about the case and to disregard anything that they may have heard but come on, we are all human and ultimately we form our personal opinions of people within the first few seconds generally of either meeting them in person or observing them otherwise. So as much as a potential juror may say that they are not swayed one way or another by the press and the posturing of the Prosecution and Defence leads , but in reality, if you have a particularly nasty case of say a child murder and you are subject to all the information being traded and put out into the public domain as it’s literally happening in real time then I don’t see how such people can truly have a real objective and fair non biased trial .
All MOO

 

[Angleterre]

I don't know. Maybe it could be other juveniles...? The UK does seem to be quite big on privacy as compared to the US. I suppose it's possible UK police don't find it necessary to inform the press of additional arrests, if there are any. IMO

It’s all to do with our very strictly observed subjudice laws in the UK

 

[Angleterre]

It all boils down to following the legalities and procedural requirements pertaining to UK LE powers and investigation.

Defence cases are often based on finding procedural errors made by LE and not on challenging the evidence directly. Procedural errors or transgressions, can render evidence inadmissible or result in a case being dismissed.

This 1000000%
I have been at Crown Court in the witness box for hours on end during the trials of many serious cases and as Whitehall 1212 correctly observes, most of the actual evidence goes unchallenged- its the procedures and justifications and Policy book guidelines and protocols that the defence pick apart with a view to finding a procedural error or not so much an error per se but non compliance 100% of the time with the guidance given and if you are not confident in your case and have not experienced the games that the defence play. then you are unlikely as the SIO to retort that compliance with the guidelines is immaterial because they are just that ... guidelines and not mandatory dictats! And once they have their hooks into you, they can get you second guessing and ultimately losing your thread and train of thought and then they go in for the kill and by this time the jury are not 100% in your spoken testimony so that leads to ‘allegations of procedural errors and the good old “ if the SIO has got this wrong, albeit it’s not that important, then what else may he or she have got wrong that is vitally important? And the damage is done ...., it’s not beyond reasonable doubt and consequently the jury cannot find the defendant guilty!
It’s that simple folks and it’s all a game of chance for the defence , only this is a game with real lives and real people and families and their health and well-being subject to great stress and sorrow.
It can be super frustrating and very disappointing but that’s nothing in terms of how I feel when compared to the family of the victim who don’t even have closure with somebody incarcerated and paying the price!

 

[Whitehall 1212]

This 1000000%
I have been at Crown Court in the witness box for hours on end during the trials of many serious cases and as Whitehall 1212 correctly observes, most of the actual evidence goes unchallenged- its the procedures and justifications and Policy book guidelines and protocols that the defence pick apart with a view to finding a procedural error or not so much an error per se but non compliance 100% of the time with the guidance given and if you are not confident in your case and have not experienced the games that the defence play. then you are unlikely as the SIO to retort that compliance with the guidelines is immaterial because they are just that ... guidelines and not mandatory dictats! And once they have their hooks into you, they can get you second guessing and ultimately losing your thread and train of thought and then they go in for the kill and by this time the jury are not 100% in your spoken testimony so that leads to ‘allegations of procedural errors and the good old “ if the SIO has got this wrong, albeit it’s not that important, then what else may he or she have got wrong that is vitally important? And the damage is done ...., it’s not beyond reasonable doubt and consequently the jury cannot find the defendant guilty!
It’s that simple folks and it’s all a game of chance for the defence , only this is a game with real lives and real people and families and their health and well-being subject to great stress and sorrow.
It can be super frustrating and very disappointing but that’s nothing in terms of how I feel when compared to the family of the victim who don’t even have closure with somebody incarcerated and paying the price!

A genuinely palpable account, which put me in the witness box again!

I often felt that to the barristers is was a battle of their adversarial talents and ego's....not the cold hard reality of what took place on that day or night many months previously.

 

[Angleterre]

A genuinely palpable account, which put me in the witness box again!

I often felt that to the barristers is was a battle of their adversarial talents and ego's....not the cold hard reality of what took place on that day or night many months previously.

You word things so eloquently and you are spot on, it often seems like it’s a battle of ego and talent as opposed to real life with real life victims.

What do you mean by a genuinely palpable account which put you in the witness box again?

 

[Whitehall 1212]

You word things so eloquently and you are spot on, it often seems like it’s a battle of ego and talent as opposed to real life with real life victims.

What do you mean by a genuinely palpable account which put you in the witness box again?

Thank you for your kind words.

It was your description of how the defence would question about knowledge of procedure or policy if there was a slight error.

They would build on it and create self-doubt if one wasn't resolute and confident and all in an effort to discredit the officer and their evidence.

It made me relive some challenging experiences....so thanks for that

 

[Angleterre]

Thank you for your kind words.

It was your description of how the defence would question about knowledge of procedure or policy if there was a slight error.

They would build on it and create self-doubt if one wasn't resolute and confident and all in an effort to discredit the officer and their evidence.

It made me relive some challenging experiences....so thanks for that

Ahhh I see.
I hope that they were positive experiences (eventually) that you had to relive ?
A little O/T but ....
I’m a great believer in everything happens for a reason and is meant to be and even if it is a horrific experience that you undergo, and at the time you cannot understand why it has happened to you, never mind believe it was meant to be and that eventually something good will come from it, in time, something good or at least positive will come from that experience. It may take you a long time to see it that way and to recognise the positives that you ultimately get from the experience but eventually you will look back and see that it had to happen in order for you to be in the place that you end up in.
I’m sure that there will be many who disagree with my philosophy and will ask - what good can possibly come from LB’s horrific murder but in time, when looking back, there will have been something come out of it that benefits people in different ways. Obviously, it goes without saying that you’d rather have LB still in your presence, especially her family and friends, but following the path set by our maker who decides when our time on this part of our journey is up, concluded, finished as we know it, and it’s not up for negotiation, it was going to happen no matter what, then the positive things start to show that eminate from the life of LB. For example, it’s made the local community so cohesive and supportive of each other and hopefully with talk of ultimately celebrating LBs life by engaging in community events, that in itself has inspired her local community to support each other ( when in this day and age, we often don’t even know who lives in our immediate road, much less see them and converse with them. )
I am in no way minimising LB’s horrific death but I am saying that if we look for it, in time, good and positive things will come out of her untimely and unfair death. And that’s already started in her immediate local community.
Her death must not be in vain
God bless her and her family and friends x

 

[Angleterre]

Thank you for your kind words.

It was your description of how the defence would question about knowledge of procedure or policy if there was a slight error.

They would build on it and create self-doubt if one wasn't resolute and confident and all in an effort to discredit the officer and their evidence.

It made me relive some challenging experiences....so thanks for that

On that note, it’s almost 3am and I have to be up at 7am so I think it’s time for bed said Zebedee! ( I bet you are too young to remember that lol). Goodnight Whitehall 1212

 

[Whitehall 1212]

On that note, it’s almost 3am and I have to be up at 7am so I think it’s time for bed said Zebedee! ( I bet you are too young to remember that lol). Goodnight Whitehall 1212

Sadly not....I remember it well

Sleep well.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Ahhh I see.
I hope that they were positive experiences (eventually) that you had to relive ?
A little O/T but ....
I’m a great believer in everything happens for a reason and is meant to be and even if it is a horrific experience that you undergo, and at the time you cannot understand why it has happened to you, never mind believe it was meant to be and that eventually something good will come from it, in time, something good or at least positive will come from that experience. It may take you a long time to see it that way and to recognise the positives that you ultimately get from the experience but eventually you will look back and see that it had to happen in order for you to be in the place that you end up in.
I’m sure that there will be many who disagree with my philosophy and will ask - what good can possibly come from LB’s horrific murder but in time, when looking back, there will have been something come out of it that benefits people in different ways. Obviously, it goes without saying that you’d rather have LB still in your presence, especially her family and friends, but following the path set by our maker who decides when our time on this part of our journey is up, concluded, finished as we know it, and it’s not up for negotiation, it was going to happen no matter what, then the positive things start to show that eminate from the life of LB. For example, it’s made the local community so cohesive and supportive of each other and hopefully with talk of ultimately celebrating LBs life by engaging in community events, that in itself has inspired her local community to support each other ( when in this day and age, we often don’t even know who lives in our immediate road, much less see them and converse with them. )
I am in no way minimising LB’s horrific death but I am saying that if we look for it, in time, good and positive things will come out of her untimely and unfair death. And that’s already started in her immediate local community.
Her death must not be in vain
God bless her and her family and friends x

Human nature is inherently good. We see it in adversity, when people come together as a community and individuals often experience a control/alt/delete reset of what truly matters in life, as a result.

I understand how, in spite of the tragedy of Lindsay's shocking death, her legacy is one of promoting community and kindness and it will change lives in her school and the local and wider community for the better.

There are many other fine examples recently, whose loss, whilst devestating to so many, brought their inspirational qualities of love, humanity, duty and sacrifice to a wider audience....R.I.P. PC's Andrew Harper and Keith Palmer G.M.

 

[Spender]

I just hope LE have everything they need and release Lindsay’s body for the family to be able to say goodbye soon . They must be going through hell ....so so sad .

 

[LucyRocket]

Approx 100 metres! Judging by Ordnance Survey online route plotting.

Literally 5 buildings away? She'd barely left home

 

[CharlestonGal]

Literally 5 buildings away? She'd barely left home

I know, right? What are the chances this 16 y/o was actually lying in wait for Lindsay to come out? That would make it a non-random attack. IMO

 

[LucyRocket]

Does the UK have something similar to the US "Alford" plea, where the suspect maintains his innocence but acknowledges the prosecution has enough evidence to convict? In other words, the suspect bows to a guilty plea, but asserts innocence?

You mean when they plead not guilty to murder but state that they were probably responsible for the death. Such as Mark Bridger

 

[Spender]

I know, right? What are the chances this 16 y/o was actually lying in wait for Lindsay to come out? That would make it a non-random attack. IMO

If he knew her routine, perhaps during school holidays she may have gone for a jog around the Coppice at the same time therefore he may have laid in wait for her ? MOO

 

[Spender]

Literally 5 buildings away? She'd barely left home

Yup, what are the odds on that happening? But all evidence we have been given would point to that being the case ...quite unbelievable.

 

[LucyRocket]

Sorry that my posts might be a bit outdated, I'm catching up.

I'm just at the point where you're all discussing victim/ accused comparison. I do think that for someone so young, she is the least likely random victim to choose. Either someone younger/ older / smaller/ frailer would be safer. Lindsay's age, height, fitness all made for a huge gamble. Bold move for someone in predator mode. I would have waited...

I don't think my thoughts are any use btw. But they're my thoughts on this part of your discussion