Found Deceased UK - Lindsay Birbeck, 47, Accrington, 12 Aug 2019 *Arrest* #3

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  • #121
That puzzles me too. If it was an attempt to remove evidence from the soles of the shoes, then why would he dispose of the soles with the uppers. That does not make sense.

Is it possible that he had removed all the clothing before putting LBs body into the bin, but left the trainers on to make it easier for him to manoeuvre the body into the bin. Then, when he got to the cemetery and buried the body, he decided to take the trainers off and by that time, rigor mortis being further advanced, he had to cut them off the body.
Hence why only the trainers have been found in the cemetery bin.
I’m interested to find out if her clothes where ever found, the defendant wasn’t to clever leaving the wheelie bin and his gloves at the cemetery and the shoes is a strange one. Maybe the clothes had been removed before he got to her body because they contained the killers dna? It is all very strange set up.
 
  • #122
I will also add that in all of my experience I can't recall once, ever, where I have known a person with autism to tell a lie. Never. I'm not saying that the individual in this situation hasn't told any lies, but depending on where he is on the spectrum, if he just has some tendencies/ traits of autism, it's possible. If he is actually classed as autistic, I would say highly unlikely to no chance. Depending on how the questioning was carried out
 
  • #123
I'm not quite sure how to write this, so bear with me while I try and get started.

I can't join in with any of the theorizing because it's been reported that the youth has autism.

Everything I see posters theorizing seems to be around the thinking of someone not on the spectrum. When apparently he is. We have no idea of his range of autism, all I can tell is that he has speech. That's it.

I'm trying to recall some of the things that stand out to me.

1. Him spending so much time alone on the coppice being unusual. No it isn't. All of the male youths I with with spend nearly all of their time alone, having as little communication with other people as possible. Some spending all of their time on a computer, and some spending equal time on a computer and outdoors. Whether on a computer or outdoors, their thoughts are completely solitary. For those that have speech, even at times when they are having conversation with others, the other party has to follow the conversation as it plays out in the mind of the person with autism, or they can't continue with the conversation.

(I mean no disrespect by using 'they', by 'they' I am referring to my recollection of each time I have supported young males who have autism, in a criminal investigation).

2. Trying to rationalise his actions. A person with autism has their own 'manual' that they live by. By 'manual', this is how I refer to their understanding of how life should be. You can't tell them any different. They will just think you are wrong. Autism is very matter-of-fact and most people on the spectrum don't have the capacity to accept that there are different ways for different people. Eg. A person who is noisy is wrong. They will not accept that that person is happy, or excited in that moment. They are just a bad person for being noisy. Noise is not acceptable according to the manual. This is one example, but it applies to their thinking about all aspects of human behaviour. You can add to their manual, but you can't change it.

3. Jonty Bravery being used as an example of a person with autism understanding the consequences of his actions, because he had reportedly said he wanted to kill someone, and had specifically said that he wanted to push someone off a high structure. This only shows that he had a plan of action. He knew what actions he wanted to carry out, but there is nothing that's been reported on that case which indicates he had any connections to the emotions or consequences on victims. Which most people on the autistic spectrum wouldn't.

4. It's very difficult to question someone with autism. You know the questions that you looking for answers to, but they don't understand why you are questioning, and due to the point I made about a conversation having to follow their own thoughts, don't cope well with questioning. They don't understand why you would be asking, because of course, the logical answers are all in the 'manual', which as far as they are concerned, we know. They would want to escape from a situation of being questioned. It's about one of the most anxiety- inducing situations they face.

To try and cover these points with a specific example, I'll tell you about the most recent arrest I have been part of. A young man with autism I know very well. Functions fairly independently. I have as good a relationship with him as anyone. He goes out for hours during the night. I don't know what he's doing for these hours. In the morning he'll show me pictures of the moon, pictures of car lights in the fog. So I can see some of the places he's been. I'll ask him what was he doing out late at night and he'll say something like "I mustn't cross the road when it's foggy Lucy because the car might not see me and bang" and then he'll walk away, because I've asked a question. He will go out for hours during the day and I know he is spending a lot of time in the bushes at the primary school. He tells me that there are often balls in the bushes and that's why he goes there, to look for them. He'll spend hours in there watching the children. You can imagine what people think when they see this, and he doesn't 'look' disabled. I ask him if he has a girlfriend and he says when he has a wife he will let me know, that there are lots of girls in the primary school and lots of girls in the college and who knows which one will be his wife. I try to explain to him that he mustn't look at the girls in the school because he is a man, so they can't be his wife, but again he walks away, as my opinion is nonsense according to his manual.

I know this has no relevance to this case, I just thought maybe for some who might not have been in a position to have experience of autism it might be a little helpful. I still can't give any answers though because each person has slight variations, and as I said, all I think I know about the person you are discussing in this case is that he has autism and speech. All the wondering about why he cut her shoes, you'll never come up with an answer. Because you're looking at it from your reasoning. He will have, what is to him, the perfectly logical answer as to why he did that, but I can guarantee you that no matter how long you think about it you are NEVER going to come up with what that is. Unless he tells us. It's in the manual. The one we don't have.

I notice that the other person on this forum who I know has a good insight into autism has gone very quiet also, they've probably been feeling as up against a wall as I have.
Thank you for your brilliant post! Don't go quiet, and I hope the other person you meant doesn't stay quiet! X
 
  • #124
Are you referring to sites such as FB?
Yes, and, Murders, Missing People And True Crime Discussions on Facebook
 
  • #125
I'm also at a disadvantage to be able to discuss or theorize, because I'll match what little I know about this case, to my specific experiences with others. The same young man I discussed, works on a farm. His employers are always telling me he's unbelievable, if they give him a strimmer he will work and work until you tell him to stop. They've joked that he would strim his way to Scotland without stopping. I know that if I told him tonight I wanted the garden clearing by Tuesday, he would get up at 6am tomorrow, source every single tool he needed, and single handedly cut down every tree, bush, hedge, flower, weed and blade of grass by the time I arrive on Tuesday. No stopping for food, sleep, rest. Just literally focus on getting the job done that I had told him to do. Do exactly as he's been told, whatever it takes. No questions or complaints.
 
  • #126
I'm not quite sure how to write this, so bear with me while I try and get started.

I can't join in with any of the theorizing because it's been reported that the youth has autism.

Everything I see posters theorizing seems to be around the thinking of someone not on the spectrum. When apparently he is. We have no idea of his range of autism, all I can tell is that he has speech. That's it.

I'm trying to recall some of the things that stand out to me.

1. Him spending so much time alone on the coppice being unusual. No it isn't. All of the male youths I with with spend nearly all of their time alone, having as little communication with other people as possible. Some spending all of their time on a computer, and some spending equal time on a computer and outdoors. Whether on a computer or outdoors, their thoughts are completely solitary. For those that have speech, even at times when they are having conversation with others, the other party has to follow the conversation as it plays out in the mind of the person with autism, or they can't continue with the conversation.

(I mean no disrespect by using 'they', by 'they' I am referring to my recollection of each time I have supported young males who have autism, in a criminal investigation).

2. Trying to rationalise his actions. A person with autism has their own 'manual' that they live by. By 'manual', this is how I refer to their understanding of how life should be. You can't tell them any different. They will just think you are wrong. Autism is very matter-of-fact and most people on the spectrum don't have the capacity to accept that there are different ways for different people. Eg. A person who is noisy is wrong. They will not accept that that person is happy, or excited in that moment. They are just a bad person for being noisy. Noise is not acceptable according to the manual. This is one example, but it applies to their thinking about all aspects of human behaviour. You can add to their manual, but you can't change it.

3. Jonty Bravery being used as an example of a person with autism understanding the consequences of his actions, because he had reportedly said he wanted to kill someone, and had specifically said that he wanted to push someone off a high structure. This only shows that he had a plan of action. He knew what actions he wanted to carry out, but there is nothing that's been reported on that case which indicates he had any connections to the emotions or consequences on victims. Which most people on the autistic spectrum wouldn't.

4. It's very difficult to question someone with autism. You know the questions that you looking for answers to, but they don't understand why you are questioning, and due to the point I made about a conversation having to follow their own thoughts, don't cope well with questioning. They don't understand why you would be asking, because of course, the logical answers are all in the 'manual', which as far as they are concerned, we know. They would want to escape from a situation of being questioned. It's about one of the most anxiety- inducing situations they face.

To try and cover these points with a specific example, I'll tell you about the most recent arrest I have been part of. A young man with autism I know very well. Functions fairly independently. I have as good a relationship with him as anyone. He goes out for hours during the night. I don't know what he's doing for these hours. In the morning he'll show me pictures of the moon, pictures of car lights in the fog. So I can see some of the places he's been. I'll ask him what was he doing out late at night and he'll say something like "I mustn't cross the road when it's foggy Lucy because the car might not see me and bang" and then he'll walk away, because I've asked a question. He will go out for hours during the day and I know he is spending a lot of time in the bushes at the primary school. He tells me that there are often balls in the bushes and that's why he goes there, to look for them. He'll spend hours in there watching the children. You can imagine what people think when they see this, and he doesn't 'look' disabled. I ask him if he has a girlfriend and he says when he has a wife he will let me know, that there are lots of girls in the primary school and lots of girls in the college and who knows which one will be his wife. I try to explain to him that he mustn't look at the girls in the school because he is a man, so they can't be his wife, but again he walks away, as my opinion is nonsense according to his manual.

I know this has no relevance to this case, I just thought maybe for some who might not have been in a position to have experience of autism it might be a little helpful. I still can't give any answers though because each person has slight variations, and as I said, all I think I know about the person you are discussing in this case is that he has autism and speech. All the wondering about why he cut her shoes, you'll never come up with an answer. Because you're looking at it from your reasoning. He will have, what is to him, the perfectly logical answer as to why he did that, but I can guarantee you that no matter how long you think about it you are NEVER going to come up with what that is. Unless he tells us. It's in the manual. The one we don't have.

I notice that the other person on this forum who I know has a good insight into autism has gone very quiet also, they've probably been feeling as up against a wall as I have.

I also work with children and adults with autism. I don’t feel that we’ve been given enough information about the level of his learning difficulties as yet. Autism is a very wide spectrum. But this will have been taken into consideration when deciding to take him to trial. Presumably we will find out how his learning difficulty may or may not have impacted his decision making. Also, what level of support or care he was under at the time. Are social services involved? Support workers? Did he attend school or college? Did he have a history of this type of behaviour? If so, how was it being managed? With recent cases, such as Jonty Bravery, he plead guilty, we learnt about the incidents and circumstances leading up to the crime. If this is a similar case, I’m sure we will find out in due course?
 
  • #127
I will also add that in all of my experience I can't recall once, ever, where I have known a person with autism to tell a lie. Never. I'm not saying that the individual in this situation hasn't told any lies, but depending on where he is on the spectrum, if he just has some tendencies/ traits of autism, it's possible. If he is actually classed as autistic, I would say highly unlikely to no chance. Depending on how the questioning was carried out

I know lots of people with autism who do lie. Like you say, it depends where you are on the spectrum but also everyone is an individual. Whilst there may be similarities, I don’t find there to be a ‘one size fits all’ - I know what you mean, this could be a lot more complex than what we know so far.
 
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  • #128
I think you'll find a lot of us here are not pig-ignorant about ASD.
 
  • #129
I think you'll find a lot of us here are not pig-ignorant about ASD.

I hope you didn't think that's what I was implying!
 
  • #130
As I said, I was sharing MY experiences of working on criminal investigations where the accused has autism. In case anyone else may be interested. If you're not, then just read on by. It's what I'm most interested in when I'm on this forum. The insight that people can give locally, professionally or personally. It tends to work best when posters respect each other. But you do get all sorts
 
  • #131
She didn’t quite fit in the wheely bin and he tried to cut them to size rather than remove them from her feet? Did he also try to chop her leg off for the same reason?

From the description of Lindsay I've read she was around 5ft 11 inches (1.80m). A standard 240 litre wheelie bin is about 1.07m (3ft 6 inches).

It's very likely that when the body was head first in the bin that the legs/feet were sticking out of the top somewhat (even accounting for an amount of bending of the body). So this is the probable reason for the attempt at cutting the leg off.
Perhaps the soles too, though it seems a lot of effort for the sake of what can't be any more than an 'inch'.

Bin sizes source:
Wheelie Bins Sizes And Dimensions
 
  • #132
I will also add that in all of my experience I can't recall once, ever, where I have known a person with autism to tell a lie. Never. I'm not saying that the individual in this situation hasn't told any lies, but depending on where he is on the spectrum, if he just has some tendencies/ traits of autism, it's possible. If he is actually classed as autistic, I would say highly unlikely to no chance. Depending on how the questioning was carried out

Thank you Lucy for these insights. So very interesting and adds more food for thought for sure.
 
  • #133
On the subject of the autism spectrum. The only thing I can say is that the defendant has been in specialist facilities for many weeks and months and has surely been seen and assessed by a whole host of experts in the field (and related). And the presumption is that he's been deemed fit to stand trial (with an intermediary in tow).
 
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  • #134
.
 
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  • #135
As I said, I was sharing MY experiences of working on criminal investigations where the accused has autism. In case anyone else may be interested. If you're not, then just read on by. It's what I'm most interested in when I'm on this forum. The insight that people can give locally, professionally or personally. It tends to work best when posters respect each other. But you do get all sorts
I found your info v helpful thanks. I have little experience personally of autism.

I would be really interested to know what you and @Angleterre think re the chances of a guilty verdict based on what has been heard so far?

For me, we know he moved the body which is undisputed fact. But without any other direct evidence of him carrying out the murder it seems it may hinge on whether the jury believe there is a chance the hooded man exists. And does that admit doubt?
 
  • #136
If what has been reported is a reasonably full representation of the evidence heard so far, I wouldnt want to be amongst those 12 Jury women and man.

I keep toing and froing with myself on whether or not he is guilty. Obviously all logical answers do point that way but somehow, I can't be sure. His story does cast some doubts in my own mind, i just cant say how logical or 'reasonable' they are at the moment.
MOO
 
  • #137
12:26
Dog walker finds Lindsay's body
Mr McLachlan said at about 7 pm, Morgan Parkinson was out walking his dog in Accrington Cemetery off Burnley Road.

His dog ran into the wooded area. Morgan Parkinson called his dog but she did not come. He moved closer towards the dog and saw her ‘sniffing in the bushes at something’.

Morgan Parkinson went closer and ‘stood on something soft and squishy’.

The jury was told that he then ‘smelt a horrible smell’.

Mr McLachlan said: “It smelt rotten and there were flies around it. Morgan Parkinson pulled his dog away and he saw a plastic cover. He saw what appeared to be a leg.

“He called the police. He was initially unable to get through but did so at 7:43 pm.”

In his call, Morgan Parkinson said: “Hello I’ve been trying to get through for the last 20 minutes. It’s all to do with the lady who has gone missing.”

Lindsay Birbeck murder trial at Preston Crown Court - updates

20 minutes sounds like a long time to reach the police. Is that unusual in Britain?
 
  • #138
Excellent post. Thank you. I would love to hear your scenario about the second person!

Not so much to add to that. So take everything i said previously about the known movements, timings, placement of the coat etc. and just add this:

Defendant had previous contact with a KNOWN accomplice. A meeting was pre-arranged somewhere in the Coppice (hence the 1 hr 40 min approx between the time the defendant headed to the Coppice and the time that the victim came into contact with the attacker/s ( almost certainly 4.10pm-4.17pm approx).

The known accomplice enters the Coppice at an undisclosed time that afternoon (let's say around 1-2pm).
He enters somewhere from the side of the Accrington Bypass which i have mentioned in several previous posts (mostly a series of fields, small back-roads and farmland the majority of which is
highly unlikely to be covered by CCTV).

Obviously the meeting takes place somewhere in the covered areas of the Coppice and the defendant and the accomplice then stalk their victim together. And the events run the same as they do for a lone attacker, with the accomplice helping lift/drag the either Lindsay or the body over the fence.

('Voice' could have been the accomplice)

Then at some stage the accomplice and defendant part ways with the accomplice exiting the Coppice in the same direction . . . .

The way the accomplice enters and exits the Coppice is basically the only way that the defence could also explain the appearance and disappearance of The Mysteriously Vanishing Hooded Man. There is no CCTV and no witnesses.

Unless the police thought the defendant's story was a load of baloney (or were perhaps not as thorough as they should have been) they should have fully investigated the idea that an accomplice could have entered from Accrington Bypass side of the Coppice and escaped via the same or similar direction (CCTV on the bypass, back-roads, sightings of parked vehicles etc.)

Then to add. The family connections would have needed much further investigation, including phone and other communications etc.
This is highly unlikely to have happened especially considering how wide the network could be and the particular 'section of the community' they are dealing with and the overall historical reluctance of police to deal with them.
 
  • #139
20 minutes sounds like a long time to reach the police. Is that unusual in Britain?
I think what happened was he phoned the non emergency nbr (101) as opposed to 999 for emergencies.

Even so, thats quite a wait. I reported a flooded road which was causing accidents at Christmas on 101 and waited about 5 minutes.

Edited nbr - confused it with nhs helpline!
 
  • #140
Does anyone have any theories as to why the location of the attack (even the actual murder) wasn't found?

I find it a bit bizarre, especially when taking into account the undisputed evidence of the CCTV of Lindsay at 4.06pm wearing her distinctive coat and that same coat being sighted on a barbed wire fence just 14 minutes later off a path in the Coppice that she regularly took. :confused:

That is a pretty narrow time frame, especially when further time could be taken off to account for reaching that point in the path. The location can also be nailed down to a pretty accurate place.
It's not like it could be 'anywhere in the Coppice' and much shrugging of investigator's shoulders.
 
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