Found Deceased UK - Lindsay Birbeck, 47, Accrington, 12 Aug 2019 *Arrest* #3

[Angleterre]

Someone was there Friday and said he wasn’t. I’m not sure on other days.

also, @Angleterre Prosecution haven’t been able to determine the murder site.

Thank you @SpursGyal
I find it incredulous myself that this cannot or has not been determined... unless I am getting my timelines wrong ?
Am I correct that there is only a small window of opportunity from her being seen on CCTV and RM being seen on CCTV with the bin carrying her body ? Or am I wrong in this assertion?

 

[SpursGyal]

Thank you @SpursGyal
I find it incredulous myself that this cannot or has not been determined... unless I am getting my timelines wrong ?
Am I correct that there is only a small window of opportunity from her being seen on CCTV and RM being seen on CCTV with the bin carrying her body ? Or am I wrong in this assertion?

There’s a small window between her entering the coppice, and others being in the area, and her messages going unanswered.

He left with the bin Days later, not the same day.

I assumed it was because, 1) it wasn’t a ‘messy’ attack, so no blood to look for, and 2) 12 days of weather and hundreds and hundreds of people trampling all over the area while on public arranged searches.

 

[Angleterre]

1) No. cause of death is neck injury, pathologist can’t determine exactly, she seems consistent Foot/knee to the neck.

a knife has been recovered with soil the same as with her body, only knife wound to her is the attempted dismemberment of her leg.

2) So far, we only have the glove that has her blood on the outside and his DNA inside.

3 and 4) No, not yet anyway.

Again, thank you @SpursGyal for your informative reply
Ok so here’s where I am at in my mind right now when reading the first lines of your post .
The forensic pathologist has said that it cannot be determined other than foot or knee to the neck . So let’s think about this and again , please , if I am wrong then tell me...
LB was 5’11 tall which is a good height
I may be wrong but from what pictures I have seen, she’s not of slight / thin build and IMOO looks average build . I’m not sure what weight but approximation , maybe 154-168lbs (11/12 st)
Now let’s look at RM - from pictures that I have seen, he is of thin build and could almost be described as ‘lanky’ ... Am I correct ?
So, if I am correct so far in my assertion, how is it possible that RM has been able to overpower LB and get her into such a position on the floor , that he is able to have sufficient control over her, to be able to either kneel or stand on her neck, thus killing her, without him having a single scratch on him ?
Somebody in that situation ( in this case LB) would be overcome with adrenalin, as in the body’s natural fight or flight defence system and I have no doubt that unless LB was incapacitated in ways such that she was unable to use her hands/ arms / legs / feet to strike out , bearing in mind that the upper leg muscle is the strongest muscle in the human body, that she would have put up a tremendous fight and show tremendous strength in order to fight to stay alive . Now if that was the case, and if RM was the one who killed her, he would have been covered in scratches and/or bruises where LB fought him and kicked him etc
Was RM subject to a forensic exam by a Police surgeon whilst being held in custody? Is it documented anywhere that he had any kind of bodily injury?
Would he, singlehandedly, have been able to overpower her sufficiently, ON HIS OWN , in order to murder her in the way in which she was murdered??
I personally, am not convinced beyond all reasonable doubt that he could have done so .... All MOO and subject to hearing further evidence during the trial that supports him as the lone offender....

 

[The Truth Is]

Again, thank you @SpursGyal for your informative reply
Ok so here’s where I am at in my mind right now when reading the first lines of your post .
The forensic pathologist has said that it cannot be determined other than foot or knee to the neck . So let’s think about this and again , please , if I am wrong then tell me...
LB was 5’11 tall which is a good height
I may be wrong but from what pictures I have seen, she’s not of slight / thin build and IMOO looks average build . I’m not sure what weight but approximation , maybe 154-168lbs (11/12 st)
Now let’s look at RM - from pictures that I have seen, he is of thin build and could almost be described as ‘lanky’ ... Am I correct ?
So, if I am correct so far in my assertion, how is it possible that RM has been able to overpower LB and get her into such a position on the floor , that he is able to have sufficient control over her, to be able to either kneel or stand on her neck, thus killing her, without him having a single scratch on him ?
Somebody in that situation ( in this case LB) would be overcome with adrenalin, as in the body’s natural fight or flight defence system and I have no doubt that unless LB was incapacitated in ways such that she was unable to use her hands/ arms / legs / feet to strike out , bearing in mind that the upper leg muscle is the strongest muscle in the human body, that she would have put up a tremendous fight and show tremendous strength in order to fight to stay alive . Now if that was the case, and if RM was the one who killed her, he would have been covered in scratches and/or bruises where LB fought him and kicked him etc
Was RM subject to a forensic exam by a Police surgeon whilst being held in custody? Is it documented anywhere that he had any kind of bodily injury?
Would he, singlehandedly, have been able to overpower her sufficiently, ON HIS OWN , in order to murder her in the way in which she was murdered??
I personally, am not convinced beyond all reasonable doubt that he could have done so .... All MOO and subject to hearing further evidence during the trial that supports him as the lone offender....

All this adrenaline and fight or flight is exactly the same for the defendant too. Also he has the upper hand because he knew what was going to happen. Also if she was taken from behind by strangulation it wouldnt take many seconds for her to black out.

 

[Roostercat]

I have always wondered this and how he could lift 70kg or thereabouts up and into a bin....

 

[SpursGyal]

The Pathologist couldn’t rule out that she was suffocated, nor could she say if she had any bruises, because of the condition of her remains. Her upper torso was more decomposed than the rest, assuming because of her position in the bin.

Regards to putting her in the bin, if the bin was on it’s side, it’s very plausible he did that alone, he could have slid her in, and gravity would have done the rest, when it was upturned. Remember he’s not disputed he moved the body.

 

[Legally Bland]

Fight, flight, freeze, flop, friend

Because we hear a lot about 'fight or flight', we can sometimes feel disappointed, frustrated or even angry with ourselves that when we were in a situation of extreme fear or danger, we didn't experience superhuman strength or speed to struggle or run off.

But the other three common reactions to fear and danger - freeze, flop and friend - are just as instinctive as fight or flight, and we don't get to choose which ones we experience in the moment.

All five responses are our bodies' automatic ways of protecting us from further harm and surviving a dangerous situation:

• Fight: physically fighting, pushing, struggling, and fighting verbally e.g. saying 'no'.
• Flight: putting distance between you and danger, including running, hiding or backing away.
• Freeze: going tense, still and silent. This is a common reaction to rape and sexual violence. Freezing is not giving consent, it is an instinctive survival response. Animals often freeze to avoid fights and potential further harm, or to 'play dead' and so avoid being seen and eaten by predators.
• Flop: similar to freezing, except your muscles become loose and your body goes floppy. This is an automatic reaction that can reduce the physical pain of what's happening to you. Your mind can also shut down to protect itself.
• Friend: calling for a 'friend' or bystander for help, for example by shouting or screaming, and/or 'befriending' the person who is dangerous, for example by placating, negotiating, bribing or pleading with them. Again, this is not you giving your attacker consent, it is an instinctive survival mechanism.

'Fight or flight' response | Rape Crisis England & Wales

 

[sunflower22]

MOO but I think he’s guilty as sin.

I believe he has previously attacked women, one near the cut through at Accrington Cricket club, although that can’t be confirmed and it’s probably built up to this.

His defence is a pie in the sky story that no jury is going to believe and I think the prosecution must be building up to the evidence that’s going to prove beyond doubt he did it. Fingernail samples or such like that can’t be explained by moving of the body.

The “I didn’t murder him/her but I did move the body” isn’t a new defence it’s been used 100s of times.

Should make for an interesting couple of weeks

JMO

Do you think they could get dna from her fingernails due to the state her body was in? There not certain on other possibilities due to this.

 

[MusicalMonkey]

Again, thank you @SpursGyal for your informative reply
Ok so here’s where I am at in my mind right now when reading the first lines of your post .
The forensic pathologist has said that it cannot be determined other than foot or knee to the neck . So let’s think about this and again , please , if I am wrong then tell me...
LB was 5’11 tall which is a good height
I may be wrong but from what pictures I have seen, she’s not of slight / thin build and IMOO looks average build . I’m not sure what weight but approximation , maybe 154-168lbs (11/12 st)
Now let’s look at RM - from pictures that I have seen, he is of thin build and could almost be described as ‘lanky’ ... Am I correct ?
So, if I am correct so far in my assertion, how is it possible that RM has been able to overpower LB and get her into such a position on the floor , that he is able to have sufficient control over her, to be able to either kneel or stand on her neck, thus killing her, without him having a single scratch on him ?
Somebody in that situation ( in this case LB) would be overcome with adrenalin, as in the body’s natural fight or flight defence system and I have no doubt that unless LB was incapacitated in ways such that she was unable to use her hands/ arms / legs / feet to strike out , bearing in mind that the upper leg muscle is the strongest muscle in the human body, that she would have put up a tremendous fight and show tremendous strength in order to fight to stay alive . Now if that was the case, and if RM was the one who killed her, he would have been covered in scratches and/or bruises where LB fought him and kicked him etc
Was RM subject to a forensic exam by a Police surgeon whilst being held in custody? Is it documented anywhere that he had any kind of bodily injury?
Would he, singlehandedly, have been able to overpower her sufficiently, ON HIS OWN , in order to murder her in the way in which she was murdered??
I personally, am not convinced beyond all reasonable doubt that he could have done so .... All MOO and subject to hearing further evidence during the trial that supports him as the lone offender....

Incidentally I was trying to hazard a guess at the whole weight/strength thing a few days ago. As I was wondering how quickly the defendant might be able to drag the victim over a fence and/or into foliage.

Lindsay was described as being slim build, distance runner (normally considered underweight for their height). So I was going off the premise that she would also be quite 'light' in comparison with her height and also noting that the jacket she's wearing on the CCTV could make her look 'bulkier'. So I put her around maybe 58kg-62kg

As you say, the defendant doesn't look that muscular from the CCTV either. Hmmm.

Though as others have noted. He could have got the 'extra strength' from adrenaline and perhaps Lindsay not so?

As for getting the victim in the bin, as already noted he could have put the bin on it's side, used the slope, slid/pushed her in. It's not known exactly what he was doing in the coppice for so long. But he seemed to take an age which could suggest he struggled with that part.

From what we know there is no DNA evidence of any other person being involved. With no murder scene and the fact it took 12 days to locate the body (further decomposition putting paid to any other hopes) would suggest that any hope of that has gone.

I am presuming that if the prosecution did already have further damning forensic evidence they would have already disclosed it to the defence in order to force a guilty plea? And wouldn't spring it upon the defence 'movie style' at the trial?

No clothes (apart from the 'trainers'), fitbit watch, keys or mobile phone as yet. They could be gone forever or could be uncovered at some stage.

The 'coat' sighting still hasn't been accounted for either. Surely if anybody innocent moved that (even it it wasn't the actual coat, or even a coat at all) they would have long come forward to eliminate it from the case? (As did people initially sought back in August 2019).

It's certainly not as clear cut as it first seemed. I wonder if being deliberately vague or lying (obviously the Hooded stranger is Major BS) would go against someone in a trail?

Also, what you said about the Tory Government and their massive police cuts: I wonder if this also had an impact on the case. I found it a bit strange how the 'coat sighting' was possibly not officially looked into with the utmost urgency.
Though I do realise that 'getting a forensic' team there immediately (or at all) in what was then a missing person case (albeit a high risk one) might have been stretching the resources a bit.

 

[MusicalMonkey]

I know there are still several days to go in the trial yet. But from what we know so far the prosecution's case is far from watertight regarding a 'murder charge' and the whole 'beyond reasonable doubt' thing.

If it were to be a 'Not guilty' verdict. Then what do you think will be the investigators/police response to this?

I would say they will go down the route of 'We think he's the murderer but the evidence proved inconclusive according to the jury'.

As the other option is that there is a murderer still out there and there is seemingly no chance of ever catching them.

 

[Angleterre]

There’s a small window between her entering the coppice, and others being in the area, and her messages going unanswered.

He left with the bin Days later, not the same day.

I assumed it was because, 1) it wasn’t a ‘messy’ attack, so no blood to look for, and 2) 12 days of weather and hundreds and hundreds of people trampling all over the area while on public arranged searches.

I understand that but did they not trace her movements via CCTV or by location services and GPS/ Pings on her mobile ?

 

[Bampot]

I'm a tall, slim, runner and sadly weigh way more than 62kg

 

[LucyRocket]

It's safe to say we will all be glued to put phone screens tomorrow to see what happens. I know I will be.

I'd like to say I will be, but I'm on a busy shift tomorrow from 7am so will catch up when I clock off at 10pm.

I'd like to say a big thank you to everyone who's been here over this lonnnnng weekend, I've really taken a lot from everyone's input. Thoughts, theories, and light conversation. My main thoughts with Lindsay's family and how this part of the process is for them

 

[Angleterre]

All this adrenaline and fight or flight is exactly the same for the defendant too. Also he has the upper hand because he knew what was going to happen. Also if she was taken from behind by strangulation it wouldnt take many seconds for her to black out.

Yes I accept that however hers may have been even more so because she was fighting for her life , he wasn’t .
I don’t see how she could have been taken from behind to strangle her as it was a foot or knee used , unless you mean that she was taken from behind first and pulled to the ground
But even then - very risky in daylight and potentially shouting out for help and using what to take her from behind ? Can’t be just his arm as not strong enough or tall enough so then maybe used a rope or piece of material in which case there would be ligature strangulation grazes on her throat but that’s not been made mention of.
Personally , for me ( hindsight is a wonderful thing) but there appears to have been things IMOO that I would have done as the SIO , which either haven’t been considered or have been considered but discounted as not progressing the enquiry.
I mean I would be looking at all the phone numbers hitting off the local masts and using analysts to look for number sequence patterns . Yes it is a lot of work but when it’s a murder enquiry , it gets done !
What about topography? Was that looked into ? There are experts at the National Police Training college who can come out to scenes and can suggest experts that can be considered for different aspects of the crime - was this done ? And also, there are documented patterns ( just like with crimes against children as to the distance away you are likely to find them and within what timeframe ), that have been laid down as to the likelihood of how far someone would travel etc and it’s done with the help of forensic psychologist etc - was this done? I know I’m looking at ideal world situations but it all has to be done properly and if it’s not done then it needs to be documented as to why.
Currently for me there are too many holes
And yes the prosecution would have disclosed everything at this point so there will be no rabbits pulled from hats .
In relation to the BS other person, if this person was not mentioned during interviews or at the charge stage then the caution is such that an inference may be drawn if they do not mention when questioned, something which they later rely on in court and that inference could be one of guilt .
Re Decomposition of LB - we are presuming that due to the time frame that full decomposition was in effect however every case is different. For example, I was present at the post Mortems of Brian Blackwells parents ( he , the son , bludgeoned them both to death in 2005? I think it was in Lydiate, Merseyside) and they had been left in the home whilst Brian Blackwell took his girlfriend on a trip to the USA for 3 weeks and when he returned, he believed that their bodies would have been found and that authorities would not consider him responsible because he was out of the country. However , they hadn’t been found so he reported a burglary at the house and said he found his parents dead . Both Mr and Mrs Blackwell were fully mummified and had not decomposed on the outside at all .
So we don’t really know the condition of LB body and what evidence was retrieved or retrievable. Again all MOO

 

[LucyRocket]

That’s the issue
It is a good piece of circumstantial evidence but circumstantial evidence on its own, unsupported by other actual tangible evidence, is not enough beyond all reasonable doubt.
One of the first no body ‘ cases was Helen McCourt murdered by pub landlord Ian Griffin I think his name was. Lots of circumstantial evidence and no body found , even to this day and Helen disappeared in 1988. But, and this is the important part, there was evidence , tangible evidence, found that tied him to her in that one of her earnings with her dna was found in his bed and there was blood at the scene that tied them both together.
Please let me know if I am wrong because as I say, I haven’t been following due to being hospitalised but unless there’s evidence of him actually committing the murder or him having the time to do so and the wherewithal to do so then it’s tricky . Yes he’s put himself in possession of LBs body , but does that mean that it can be proved beyond all reasonable doubt that he was the one who killed her ?
Genuine questions here :
1. Was he found in possession of the murder weapon
2. Do his clothes /shoes have LBs blood on them and if so, can the forensics show the blood to be indicative of him being involved in the act of murder ?
3. If strangulation took place , did LB fight back and scratch the offenders face neck etc ? And if he is the offender, did he have scratches on him ? Did LB have the skin cells of the offender underneath her own nails where she tried to fight back and scratched him whilst being strangled.?
4. Is there any DNA that matches RM found inside LBs body that can’t be explained away other than the obvious?
So what I am saying is that yes it’s very strong circumstantial evidence being found in possession of LBs deceased body , but can it be proven that he in fact had the means , motive and opportunity to kill LB or was he just moving the body on behalf of another?
I certainly wouldn’t want to be on that jury making a decision as to wether a 16 year old lad, is responsible or not, for the death and murder of LB and was it premeditated or happenstance... and if found guilty , send him to prison for life , unless they were absolutely sure beyond all reasonable doubt. Because the tiniest bit of doubt in your mind and you cannot convict .
That is the adversarial system that we currently have in the UK .

Edited to add : Do the prosecution know where LB was murdered ? The murder site as opposed to the deposition site ? And can RM be tied to these by forensic evidence?

Hi @Angleterre, I hope you're doing ok. There's been very little specifics in the prosecution's opening, no more in the first week of witness evidence, and nothing at all reported prior to that (as per our UK standard).

1. Apparently a knife has been recovered from his property. But as he has admitted having dealings with her body after death, this can't be used to categorically connect him to her murder. Nothing on this aspect has been covered yet in evidence

2. Not yet covered in evidence, but again, as 1., because he admittedly puts himself with her body, could explain without him being connected to her murder

3. Not yet covered in evidence. @The Truth Is has raised this as being the pivotal point in being able to connect the accused to the murder; DNA under Lindsay's fingernails. Good question about injuries on the accused, I think this is the first time this question has come up. We don't actually know if strangulation took place. The pathologist said there were extensive injuries to the neck which could be conducive with kicking, stamping or kneeling, but due to the extent of decomposition it wasn't possible to tell

4. This has been covered in evidence by the pathologist, and again, no evidence to indicate a positive or negative, due to the extent of decomposition

Your ETA has been a massive Q. on here. Apparently the murder site has never been located or identified

 

[MusicalMonkey]

I understand that but did they not trace her movements via CCTV or by location services and GPS/ Pings on her mobile ?

This hasn't been established.

I was wondering if she had GPS enabled on her smartphone and maybe even the Fitbit.

As far as I'm aware. Pinging from Towers isn't THAT accurate. It can place you in a certain area, but it's not anywhere near pin-point,

 

[Angleterre]

This hasn't been established.

I was wondering if she had GPS enabled on her smartphone and maybe even the Fitbit.

As far as I'm aware. Pinging from Towers isn't THAT accurate. It can place you in a certain area, but it's not anywhere near pin-point,

Without going into too much detail and giving away trade secrets, there are many ways of tracing positions and yes you are right that with pings it depends which tower it pings from but, although it is very time consuming and the mobile phone companies don’t want to do it because of the work involved ( plus their remit is that they only have to be obligated to do it if it’s a matter of life and death and in this case their argument will be that she’s deceased so it doesn’t fit the parameters), it can be done and there is a lot more that can be done than the ordinary member of the public is aware of. However, like everything, cost becomes a factor.

 

[SpursGyal]

Other than a mention of a few messages we haven’t had much information regarding mobile phones at all.

I believe she was wearing a FIT bit too, so I would hope prosecution will divulge more on that.

 

[Angleterre]

Hi @Angleterre, I hope you're doing ok. There's been very little specifics in the prosecution's opening, no more in the first week of witness evidence, and nothing at all reported prior to that (as per our UK standard).

1. Apparently a knife has been recovered from his property. But as he has admitted having dealings with her body after death, this can't be used to categorically connect him to her murder. Nothing on this aspect has been covered yet in evidence

2. Not yet covered in evidence, but again, as 1., because he admittedly puts himself with her body, could explain without him being connected to her murder

3. Not yet covered in evidence. @The Truth Is has raised this as being the pivotal point in being able to connect the accused to the murder; DNA under Lindsay's fingernails. Good question about injuries on the accused, I think this is the first time this question has come up. We don't actually know if strangulation took place. The pathologist said there were extensive injuries to the neck which could be conducive with kicking, stamping or kneeling, but due to the extent of decomposition it wasn't possible to tell

4. This has been covered in evidence by the pathologist, and again, no evidence to indicate a positive or negative, due to the extent of decomposition

Your ETA has been a massive Q. on here. Apparently the murder site has never been located or identified

Has it been reported by the forensic pathologist as to wether the ‘hyoid’ bone was broken because even if full decomposition has taken place, the bones will still be recovered and that is what is usually indicative of forceful strangulation

 

[SpursGyal]

Could anyone clarify, if the Jury return Not Guilty, does he walk free?

I was under the impression he would, but others have suggested they can still convict for the movement and concealment of her body.