Found Deceased UK - Lindsay Birbeck, 47, Accrington, 12 Aug 2019 *Arrest* #3

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  • #781
Hi Folks newbie here :)
I wondered if they have further CCTV of her just after the CCTV at "The bungalow" on the opposite side of the road (so not a good picture, but enough to say she went past the entrances at WA
(the CCTV of him pulling the bin was just past this point on the opposite side of the road, so could well show her walking past the corner of Whitewell Rd)

I also think he is guilty, but wasn't alone in this crime, think maybe he is covering for someone else (maybe a friend or family member & is being exploited in that way) I don't think he would strike up a conversation with a random stranger or do anything they would ask of him, but might be inclined to help someone he knew. another small point, I am struggling to see how he managed all this alone. even if he is deceptively strong, it would still be very difficult to move her into a wheelie bin on his own, he looked like he was struggling even to pull it along the tarmac

I have been looking at this from if he were innocent & if he were, surely he'd want to provide them with as much information as he possibly could, but instead he stayed "no comment" throughout 3 days of interviews. Also do we know of "When" this supposed stranger appeared, he was very vaige about the description, but he would at the very least be able to put a timeline on this & also would be able to show police where he was initially taken to move her body from, as others have mentioned the window is very small, so any details like this would've greatly helped the investigation. His refusal to help at all makes him more guilty in my eyes (moo)
From what has been said he wasn’t the best at communicating, maybe the no comment was easier for him, possibility if he did start answering questions if he could,he might of given them details as to whoever was involved which he doesn’t want to do as they are possible known to him
 
  • #782
Thank you so much for this
Very much appreciated because I don’t know and have not seen the area.
I know it’s of no consequence but how spooky is it that Lucy Braithwaite and Lindsay Birbeck both have the same initials??? I have not picked up on that tiny detail before and I am not saying that it is of any evidential value at all but it has just ‘thrown me’ in a spooky way!

Apologies. But on the original map (rather than my message) I actually put the wrong first name down. *Now corrected

Of course I'm often editing as I also 'should be doing other things'. LOL.
 
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  • #783
Hi Folks newbie here :)
I wondered if they have further CCTV of her just after the CCTV at "The bungalow" on the opposite side of the road (so not a good picture, but enough to say she went past the entrances at WA
(the CCTV of him pulling the bin was just past this point on the opposite side of the road, so could well show her walking past the corner of Whitewell Rd)

I also think he is guilty, but wasn't alone in this crime, think maybe he is covering for someone else (maybe a friend or family member & is being exploited in that way) I don't think he would strike up a conversation with a random stranger or do anything they would ask of him, but might be inclined to help someone he knew. another small point, I am struggling to see how he managed all this alone. even if he is deceptively strong, it would still be very difficult to move her into a wheelie bin on his own, he looked like he was struggling even to pull it along the tarmac

I have been looking at this from if he were innocent & if he were, surely he'd want to provide them with as much information as he possibly could, but instead he stayed "no comment" throughout 3 days of interviews. Also do we know of "When" this supposed stranger appeared, he was very vaige about the description, but he would at the very least be able to put a timeline on this & also would be able to show police where he was initially taken to move her body from, as others have mentioned the window is very small, so any details like this would've greatly helped the investigation. His refusal to help at all makes him more guilty in my eyes (moo)
Excellent points made. Just thought I'd mention that, when the defendant was seen on cctv wheeling the blue bin, and, clearly struggling with it as you say, it wasn't Lindsay in that bin. Thankfully. I'm presuming it was bricks, scrap metal or such
 
  • #784
You may well be correct but if that were the case then why has this not been brought up before now. The appropriate adult starts at the very beginning and there has been months and months for the appropriateness of that particular adult to be investigated... so why now ? Hhmmmmmm

I know, it’s all very odd, the prosecution have dropped the ball on this one.
 
  • #785
Apologies. But on the actual map (rather than my message) I actually put the wrong first name down.

Of course I'm often editing as I also 'should be doing other things'. LOL.
Brilliant map. To my mind, that's how all maps should be!
 
  • #786
I’m glad that you have the experience in Crown Court trials in the UK to back me up on this because I wouldn’t want my fellow WSs to believe that this is the norm when it certainly is not and generally, most trials undertaken, operate at a much more professional level with a far greater degree of evidence given , which supports the charges levelled against the accused on the indictment . I think that public pressure and public interest in this vicious crime against a vulnerable female out walking in the middle of the day, daylight hours, has swayed the Police and CPS to bring the trial to court at a far earlier stage than would normally be done and unfortunately, as a result of this pressure, there has not been sufficient time to go down every route in order to obtain all the available evidence. I feel IMOO their judgement has been clouded by the weight of public pressure to take someone to Court and to reduce the anxiety and public perception of the fear of crime coming to fruition by saying that there is no need to worry because the perpetrator who committed this heinous act, has been apprehended and will be going away for a very long time....
Because we no longer have the laws against double jeopardy, if RM was to be found not guilty of the murder of LB, at least this way, IF NEW EVIDENCE was to come to light further down the line and IF CPS BELIEVE THAT IT IS IN THE PUBLIC INTEREST TO PROSECUTE FOR A SECOND TIME, then at least we get to do it again and have two bites of the cherry !
I have the experience of Crown Court trials from the dark side to you lol! But completely agree with everything you have said from you perspective, from my point of view, it’s a bit of a farce of a Crown Court trial really!
 
  • #787
If found

If found not not guilty would he walk free, or at this point can they put another charge on him for disposal of a body?
If found

If found not not guilty would he walk free, or at this point can they put another charge on him for disposal of a body?
He can only be found guilty on whatever charge is on the indictment, in this case murder only. It could be the case that all the legal argument in chambers which has been happening, may be in order to put an alternative charge to him, I.e. unlawful burial. We’ll just have to wait and see.....
 
  • #788
Brilliant map. To my mind, that's how all maps should be!

Just think. If I had the time I'd go there and film it with a GoPro/Body cam. Then come back and edit it, giving you all a 3d video walk-through and also split screen that with a top-down (drone map). A bit like how google maps street view works. :p
 
  • #789
Just think. If I had the time I'd go there and film it with a GoPro/Body cam. Then come back and edit it, giving you all a 3d video walk-through and also split screen that with a top-down (drone map). A bit like how google maps street view works. :p

Find the time! :p
 
  • #790
Just think. If I had the time I'd go there and film it with a GoPro/Body cam. Then come back and edit it, giving you all a 3d video walk-through and also split screen that with a top-down (drone map). A bit like how google maps street view works. :p

That sounds like a dream!! I wouldn't get anything done if such thing existed!! :p
 
  • #791
Just think. If I had the time I'd go there and film it with a GoPro/Body cam. Then come back and edit it, giving you all a 3d video walk-through and also split screen that with a top-down (drone map). A bit like how google maps street view works. :p
Oh, that would be A-MAZ-ING!
 
  • #792
I wonder if the CCTV was just not working on this day? Or not working at all.

Some people are very organised about checking their cctv, others not so much and just believe that if they have a camera in view on their property, this in itself will deter burglars, even if not working. My guess is the non working cctv had probably been out of action for a while, without owners being aware of this.
 
  • #793
Re the cctv that captured the defendant on Burnley Rd/Whitewell Rd side but did not capture LB at the same point on the other side of Burnley Rd / Whitakers Arms side ...could it just be a question of range - that it didn't cover the far side of the road ?
 
  • #794
He can only be found guilty on whatever charge is on the indictment, in this case murder only. It could be the case that all the legal argument in chambers which has been happening, may be in order to put an alternative charge to him, I.e. unlawful burial. We’ll just have to wait and see.....
I don't know if you missed it but I posted a link yesterday to where it was reported at the hearing in September that he was charged with body disposal. Post #615 page 31 of this thread.
 
  • #795
Without me searching pages of posts, can any of my fellow WSs point me in the direction of Lucy Braithwaites testimony and what evidence she gave please?


The first prosecution witness today is Zoe Braithwaite.
She is giving evidence in the witness box from behind a screen.
Her Honour Mrs Justice Yip has told the jury that it is no reflection on the witness or the defendant and it is to put the witness at ease.

Zoe Braithwaite on CCTV heading towards the Coppice
Zoe Braithwaite is being asked about events on August 12, 2019 - the day of Lindsay Birbeck’s disappearance.
The jury is being shown CCTV of the witness on Elmwood Close walking towards the Coppice in Accrington at 3.44pm and then walking back at around 4.04pm near to the Peel Park Hotel.

Zoe Braithwaite said: “I looked to my left and saw a lone male figure on a a path that runs parallel to the path that I’m on. “There was a lot of foliage. I didn’t have a clear view of him at that point.”

Zoe Braithwaite told the jury that as the paths got closer together she had a clearer view of the male.

The jury heard that she could see him at a distance of 15m through the trees.

She described the male from a side view as between 20 and 25 years old, around 6ft to 6ft 2ins, of slim build and that he had his hands in his pocket.
She said: “I decided whatever route he went I would take another route.
“From the first time I saw him I was wary of him.
“He looked out of place in the woods.
“He was in front of me. He was walking very slowly.
“I didn’t want to be in front of him.
“I wanted to be able to see him at all times. I slowed down so I could be behind him
Zoe Braithwaite told the jury that at one point the male was about 120m away.

She said he then joined her path and was about 50m away and ‘pulled up as if he had been running’.
She said: “That’s when I became concerned. I picked up my pace and down the descent as quickly as I could.
“I didn’t look back again. I just daren’t. I never saw him again.


Zoe Braithwaite said there was a ‘mass search’ at the Coppice on August 19 and she went there hoping to find a police officer but couldn’t.
She then contacted 101 but couldn’t get through because it was busy.
Mrs Braithwaite told the jury that she then started to fill in a form on the Lancashire Constabulary website but her session ‘timed out’.
The next day (August 20) she completed the website form and included a ‘basic description of what I could see’.


Zoe Braithwaite is now being cross examined by defence barrister Mark Fenhalls QC.
The witness said the closest she got to the male on the Coppice was 3m (10ft) and the furthest away was around 150ft.

Mr Fernhall then refers the jury to her statement where she describes her eye sight.
Mrs Braithwaite said she wears varifocal glasses for driving.
In her statement, she said: “My sight from anything beyond 15ft can be affected if I don’t wear my glasses.
“I’m not sure I did have them on that day.”


Defence barrister Mr Fenhalls then asks Mrs Braithwaite about the part on the police form where she was asked if she ‘felt vulnerable’.
Mrs Braithwaite replied on the form saying “don’t know”.
The witness then explains she did not feel vulnerable at the time filling out the form on August 20.


Zoe Braithwaite is asked about her description of the male as 20 to 25 years old and between 6ft and 6ft 2ins.
Mr Fenhalls said: “What was it about the figure that made you think he was 20 to 25?”
She replied: “His height, the way he was dressed.”

Police visited Mrs Braithwaite on August 27, 2019 to have a face to face conversation.

The jury were told that in her statement she said the male’s trainers had an ‘upside down V’ and were blue

Defence barrister Mr Fenhalls refers Zoe Braithwaite to her earlier description to the jury of the male ‘pulling up as if he had been running’.
This was from the time when he was around 120m away to around 50m away on the Coppice path.
He then refers to her police statement where she says: “So while I can’t say what his original pace was at that point, what I can say for sure is that as I turned my head to glance at him he pulled up short, almost startled when I turned to look.”

When asked about the difference in her description and no mention of the male running in her statement, Mrs Braithwaite said: “He pulled up as if he had been running. He couldn’t have covered that ground unless he had run.”

Mr Fenhalls asked if she then saw anyone else apart from ‘two Asian lads’ and she said ‘no’.
Zoe Braithwaite said she did not see anybody else on the Coppice apart from the male.

When asked by the prosecutor about her pace during the latter part of the walk, she said ‘really fast’.

The evidence from the witness and cross-examination has now ended.
 
  • #796
We are aware that the scene of Lindsay's murder is unknown. However, reading the defendant's statement again, he said "he (the invisible man) showed me where the body was". He also said "he told me he would leave the money for me where the body had been at first". Would this not be the murder scene?!
 
  • #797
I don't know if you missed it but I posted a link yesterday to where it was reported at the hearing in September that he was charged with body disposal. Post #615 page 31 of this thread.
I don't know if you missed it but I posted a link yesterday to where it was reported at the hearing in September that he was charged with body disposal. Post #615 page 31 of this thread.

I am not sure if it’s just the usual local rag sloppy reporting, but if it is indeed on the indictment, he will be sentenced once the trial for murder is over. Have not seen anything else officially which relates to the unlawful burial, guess we will just have to wait and see, to be fair, his pre prepared statement admits he is at least guilty of unlawful burial / disposal of a body.
 
  • #798
We are aware that the scene of Lindsay's murder is unknown. However, reading the defendant's statement again, he said "he (the invisible man) showed me where the body was". He also said "he told me he would leave the money for me where the body had been at first". Would this not be the murder scene?![/QUOTE] could of been killed somewhere else then been shown where they left the body for him to “get rid of”
 
  • #799
We are aware that the scene of Lindsay's murder is unknown. However, reading the defendant's statement again, he said "he (the invisible man) showed me where the body was". He also said "he told me he would leave the money for me where the body had been at first". Would this not be the murder scene?!
I was just this very minute thinking about this myself, doesn’t look as if the accused has confirmed the place where he collected the body from!
 
  • #800
We are aware that the scene of Lindsay's murder is unknown. However, reading the defendant's statement again, he said "he (the invisible man) showed me where the body was". He also said "he told me he would leave the money for me where the body had been at first". Would this not be the murder scene?!


I found these 3 words interesting. Why the need to qualify ? Or is this his solicitor's wording ?


Taking it to the cemetery on Burnley Road where I buried it on my own.
 
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