Found Deceased UK - Lindsay Birbeck, 47, Accrington, 12 Aug 2019 *Arrest* #3

[Dcflag]

I now really don’t think he disposed of some of the items, I think others did a far better job than he cared to do, and I don’t believe they knew until after her body was found, otherwise I don’t think she wouldn’t have been found either. IMO obviously.

Perhaps, if we're subscribing to the theory someone has had a hand in disposing after the fact. It's probably highly likely he's just dumped her stuff under his bed and his family members have raised his bedroom to the ground before police were able to get access.

I don't know why I think it, I just get the impression he didn't intend to kill her, and when he has he's probably tried various ways to get rid of her and hide the evidence, hence the attempt at dismemberment. Perhaps even researching what to do. After realising that isn't happening he's just lost interest.

I still believe her clothes would have been a significant discovery. Could it really be the element of luck has potentially kept him out of prison? Because that sure is some feat for a kid.

 

[SpursGyal]

Perhaps, if we're subscribing to the theory someone has had a hand in disposing after the fact. It's probably highly likely he's just dumped her stuff under his bed and his family members have raised his bedroom to the ground before police were able to get access.

I don't know why I think it, I just get the impression he didn't intend to kill her, and when he has he's probably tried various ways to get rid of her and hide the evidence, hence the attempt at dismemberment. Perhaps even researching what to do. After realising that isn't happening he's just lost interest.

I still believe her clothes would have been a significant discovery. Could it really be the element of luck has potentially kept him out of prison? Because that sure is some feat for a kid.

I would agree that he didn’t go out to Kill.

 

[MusicalMonkey]

Who'd have thought such an obvious lie would turn out to be such an amazing defence?

I think someone else pointed out something similar in a previous post: A lot of people here seem almost convinced there was a '2nd person' involved in the actual murder.

Based on what exactly? - One obvious lie in a pre-prepared statement.

Think about that for a minute.

There is not one shred of evidence of a 2nd person being involved in the murder.

Unless of course you believe that the person that 'followed' witness Zoe Braithwaite was the mystery man and not the defendant. And that's flimsy circumstantial evidence at best.

Either way, it's all win win for the defence.

 

[Dcflag]

Who'd have thought such an obvious lie would turn out to be such an amazing defence?

I think someone else pointed out something similar in a previous post: A lot of people here seem almost convinced there was a '2nd person' involved in the actual murder.

Based on what exactly? - One obvious lie in a pre-prepared statement.

Think about that for a minute.

There is not one shred of evidence of a 2nd person being involved in the murder.

Unless of course you believe that the person that 'followed' witness Zoe Braithwaite was the mystery man and not the defendant. And that's flimsy circumstantial evidence at best.

Either way, it's all win win for the defence.

Absolutely. I know it gives that element of doubt but I really am surprised so many people have given the idea the time of day to be honest. Given the timeframes involved from leaving her house to dead, it would be highly unlikely a second person was involved. Plus he was on the coppice for hours before she died, yet the man asked him on Burnley road. What was he doing on the coppice all those hours? Did he leave after a few hours, have the encounter and go back? It's a wildly tall tale.

 

[Smccat]

Excellent points made. Just thought I'd mention that, when the defendant was seen on cctv wheeling the blue bin, and, clearly struggling with it as you say, it wasn't Lindsay in that bin. Thankfully. I'm presuming it was bricks, scrap metal or such

@Kaykedi can you clarify this for me please? I must have missed something vital somewhere. I always thought that CCTV pulling the heavy bin was gruesome and the suggestion of it looking heavy and him struggling etc was that poor Lindsay was in it at the time. Who confirmed that she was definitely not in it in that footage? And so is it a fact then that the defendant was regularly pulling bins around the area / collecting scrap etc ?

 

[Angleterre]

I am confused by loads of his actions...
Why leave a saw, shoes and gloves near to where the body was found... Why not get rid of all these items along with the clothing which hasn't turned up...
It's as though someone has helped to a certain point then left him to finish of clearing up, he wasn't sure how to go about this so eventually "buried" her... (moo)

If there was police out and about the day of the 17th he was very lucky to not be seen moving the bin,
I am also stunned the body wasn't found sooner, dog walkers had been in the area, the bin had been seen a few times, yet not one person saw this mound in the brambles,
And shame on the officer who went with the police dog, if they had searched a bit better or let the dog off thw body may of been found sooner, instead they just dismissed the bin, that bin was only in lockup in dill Hall because the staff member had the sense to keep hold of it "just for incase"

Hang on... so a police dog (GSD) was taken to the area to search for LB and/or her body and yet the handler missed the body buried in the undergrowth? And didn’t take the dog off the lead to search ? Depending on the time of day and how many people were there and potentially at risk of a GSD being let off his lead , this is not best practice if the area was quiet and secure enough..... oh my

 

[SpursGyal]

Hang on... so a police dog (GSD) was taken to the area to search for LB and/or her body and yet the handler missed the body buried in the undergrowth? And didn’t take the dog off the lead to search ? Depending on the time of day and how many people were there and potentially at risk of a GSD being let off his lead , this is not best practice if the area was quiet and secure enough..... oh my

'Apparently' The police dogs were not off the lead in the cemetery. I do think that before she was found, they were concentrating on the coppice for searching.

 

[J4k]

I think she was put in the bin the same evening she was killed (12th August), somewhere between 8:30 and 10:30pm or there would be a detectable crime scene.
also on his dry run 16th August he was seen at 1:44pm going towards the Coppice and then on his way to the cemetery again 26 mins later at 2:13pm.
on the 17th he was seen at 1:50pm and then captured at a slightly longer time frame of 43 minutes to appear again at 2:33pm pulling the bin.

This suggests to me that
a) she was already in the bin.
b) she was in an area very close to the WA
as there is evidence to suggest that is the path he took (marks on the concrete plinth)
& also to pull the bin any distance would've taken a lot longer than the extra time he had to move the bin & loiter (sit on the bin) on this journey to the cemetery.

Also could be that the trainers were in the bin and only disposed of after he moved the her to the cemetery.

 

[sunflower22]

Th

Hang on... so a police dog (GSD) was taken to the area to search for LB and/or her body and yet the handler missed the body buried in the undergrowth? And didn’t take the dog off the lead to search ? Depending on the time of day and how many people were there and potentially at risk of a GSD being let off his lead , this is not best practice if the area was quiet and secure enough..... oh my

the police officer and dog was only 6m away from the body.

 

[Ann Blyth]

Hang on... so a police dog (GSD) was taken to the area to search for LB and/or her body and yet the handler missed the body buried in the undergrowth? And didn’t take the dog off the lead to search ? Depending on the time of day and how many people were there and potentially at risk of a GSD being let off his lead , this is not best practice if the area was quiet and secure enough..... oh my

I know, right? Bit of mismanagement by the police, I think. Certainly not helping now the case is ongoing at Court, as we have seen so far.......

 

[PiggyStardust]

Was he loitering and sitting on the bin or in the act of tamping down whatever was in the bin? .....*PS shudders*
Passerby approaches so he stops and pretends to be resting until they have gone.

 

[Doris777]

Hang on... so a police dog (GSD) was taken to the area to search for LB and/or her body and yet the handler missed the body buried in the undergrowth? And didn’t take the dog off the lead to search ? Depending on the time of day and how many people were there and potentially at risk of a GSD being let off his lead , this is not best practice if the area was quiet and secure enough..... oh my

I think in the beginning because it was just a missing person inquiry they where not looking for a body so why let the dog off? It was only when she was found that it became a murder inquiry.

A lot of people going mad about this but everyone has to remember that from day 1 it was only a missing person. If it was anything different I bet she would have been found the same day if not soon after.

I can't even think what is right and wrong anymore. The case was such high profile from day one. Everyone was hoping she was found alive and that she was just injured and had fallen somewhere down a hill or something. I always remember the searching was all based on staying on the footpath, don't stray from there as they didn't want anymore missing or injured people about.

There was so much think undergrowth around the area that anything could have been hidden anywhere...even a body. Even a big blue wheelie bin!

Same at the cemetery, if u just looked at what would have been a mound of bushes would u think it was hiding a body...u wouldn't. It was only because of the dog walker standing on the body that she was found...

I just honestly think it's all such a mess is this case. To many thing not being answered now like the phones. Clothes. GPS stuff from her for bit...to much unknown. I don't know how this trial will end. Just scary if he gets off and there's a murderer out walking the streets...

 

[Angleterre]

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not sure if this has been posted already or not, but more CCTV from "The Bungalow" just higher up from WA, it shows someone like him exiting the "field area" of the coppice on the night of the 12th at 22.23pm, he was seen taking a wheelie bin up in that direction approx 2 hours previous to this clip.

Not sure whether that's the rucksack he's carrying, or could even be a coat (with the way it swishes)?

Looks to me like a carrier bag that is heavy because of the way it is swinging...?
Edited to add: second and third look I think it is a jacket/coat ...

 

[Angleterre]

I've been following this case since Lindsay went missing. I'm not very hopeful that the defendant will be found guilty. The evidence to prove he did murder LB is not convincing enough. I feel very sorry for the family as I'm not sure how this case has got to court on what we've read so far.

I agree wholeheartedly

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I am confused by loads of his actions...
Why leave a saw, shoes and gloves near to where the body was found... Why not get rid of all these items along with the clothing which hasn't turned up...
It's as though someone has helped to a certain point then left him to finish of clearing up, he wasn't sure how to go about this so eventually "buried" her... (moo)

If there was police out and about the day of the 17th he was very lucky to not be seen moving the bin,
I am also stunned the body wasn't found sooner, dog walkers had been in the area, the bin had been seen a few times, yet not one person saw this mound in the brambles,
And shame on the officer who went with the police dog, if they had searched a bit better or let the dog off thw body may of been found sooner, instead they just dismissed the bin, that bin was only in lockup in dill Hall because the staff member had the sense to keep hold of it "just for incase"

A general purpose police dog, often a German Shepherd, is a ground scenting/trail dog. They are trained to pick up the strongest, freshest human scent and follow it, often with the intention to track an offender and 'detain' them.

If it was a general purpose police dog that was being used then it would have been of limited use in finding a body. Therefore the presence of the dog may have just been coincidental as the officer searched and for community reassurance.

Ideally, a specialist search dog with cadaver scenting skills would be required. If there are any such dogs available in UK police forces they will be few and far between based on the demand/cost curve. Such dogs are used by some search and rescue teams and are available from private companies.

What I do wonder is if a cadaver dog was used to try and identify if/where LB's body was stored in the Whitakers Arms/chicken sheds/coppice area prior to being moved to the cemetery.

 

[Rosegold68]

ive just been in our local 'coppice' with my 22 week old labrador puppy......he is constantly sniffing and scent tracing, but he pulled me into a bush with some discarded clothing.....my heart was in my mouth i thought it was a body!! made me think though....a little pup like him is interested enough, why wasn't Lindsay discovered earlier, dogs are dogs and will sniff out ....and maybe time to retire that GSD!!

 

[Rosegold68]

Eddie and Keela are the police dogs used in uk...used them in Madeline McCann case

 

[Angleterre]

I think in the beginning because it was just a missing person inquiry they where not looking for a body so why let the dog off? It was only when she was found that it became a murder inquiry.

A lot of people going mad about this but everyone has to remember that from day 1 it was only a missing person. If it was anything different I bet she would have been found the same day if not soon after.

I can't even think what is right and wrong anymore. The case was such high profile from day one. Everyone was hoping she was found alive and that she was just injured and had fallen somewhere down a hill or something. I always remember the searching was all based on staying on the footpath, don't stray from there as they didn't want anymore missing or injured people about.

There was so much think undergrowth around the area that anything could have been hidden anywhere...even a body. Even a big blue wheelie bin!

Same at the cemetery, if u just looked at what would have been a mound of bushes would u think it was hiding a body...u wouldn't. It was only because of the dog walker standing on the body that she was found...

I just honestly think it's all such a mess is this case. To many thing not being answered now like the phones. Clothes. GPS stuff from her for bit...to much unknown. I don't know how this trial will end. Just scary if he gets off and there's a murderer out walking the streets...

I accept what you are saying but my husband was a police dog handler and we have discussed this and if he was assigned to take a look there because of a MFH ( missing from home) he said that in that kind of area with undergrowth, he would have definitely taken our GSD off his lead to have a poke around because otherwise he can only search in a limited capacity on the lead unless the dog handler tramples through the undergrowth on foot...

 

[Rosegold68]

initial view does look like a carrier bag (trainers were found in a carrier bag) with a loose top/jacket in same hand

 

[Angleterre]

A general purpose police dog, often a German Shepherd, is a ground scenting/trail dog. They are trained to pick up the strongest, freshest human scent and follow it, often with the intention to track an offender and 'detain' them.

If it was a general purpose police dog that was being used then it would have been of limited use in finding a body. Therefore the presence of the dog may have just been coincidental as the officer searched and for community reassurance.

Ideally, a specialist search dog with cadaver scenting skills would be required. If there are any such dogs available in UK police forces they will be few and far between based on the demand/cost curve. Such dogs are used by some search and rescue teams and are available from private companies.

What I do wonder is if a cadaver dog was used to try and identify if/where LB's body was stored in the Whitakers Arms/chicken sheds/coppice area prior to being moved to the cemetery.

I accept what you say about cadaver dogs however although GSDs cannot scent bodies , they can scent disturbances to the ground and objects and my DH says that he believes that had there have been a body there , not fully buried, then his GSD would have picked up on it ...