GUILTY UK - Logan Mwangi, 5, found dead in Wales River, Bridgend, 31 July 2021 *arrests, inc. minor* #6

[JuicyLucy]

Now that we have a new thread and all the start-of-thread reminders have been posted again, it's worth saying that it now seems the youth defendant did have a formal diagnosis of ADHD and autism, according to this interview with his foster parents.

Foster parents of boy, 14, who murdered Logan Mwangi 'lived in fear' and warned social services | Daily Mail Online

As far as I'm aware nothing official has been said about either JC or AW's mental health history.

 

[Doughy]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

"The dedicated couple were warned the teenager had ADHD and autism when he moved in with them."

Foster parents of boy, 14, who murdered Logan Mwangi 'lived in fear' and warned social services | Daily Mail Online

 

[Sillybilly]

"The dedicated couple were warned the teenager had ADHD and autism when he moved in with them."

Foster parents of boy, 14, who murdered Logan Mwangi 'lived in fear' and warned social services | Daily Mail Online

Thank you Doughy. In that case, members may discuss how ADHD and autism may factor into this particular discussion.

 

[tedtink]

Again, IMO, upbringing and environment will still have a major effect on the behavior of the youth and the co-existing disorders, also we don't know where, on the spectrum, he is.



Can a person be diagnosed with both ADHD and ASD?

More than half of all individuals who have been diagnosed with ASD also have signs of ADHD. In fact, ADHD is the most common coexisting condition in children with ASD. On the flip side, up to a quarter of children with ADHD have low-level signs of ASD, which might include having difficulty with social skills or being very sensitive to clothing textures, for example.

Why do ADHD and ASD coexist so often and what are the similarities between them?

Both ADHD and ASD are neurodevelopmental disorders (brain development has been affected in some way). That means both conditions/disorders affect the central nervous system, which is responsible for movement, language, memory, and social and focusing skills. A number of scientific studies have shown that the two conditions often coexist, but researchers have not yet figured out why they do.

With ADHD or ASD, brain development has been affected in some way. Most importantly, that includes the brain’s executive functioning, which is responsible for decision making, impulse control, time management, focus, and organization skills. For many children, social skills are also affected. Both ADHD and ASD are more common in boys.

Although adults can have both ADHD and ASD, the combination is not as common as it is in children. While ASD is considered a lifelong disorder, long-term studies have shown that in one-third to two-thirds of children with ADHD, symptoms last into adulthood.

ADHD and Autism Spectrum Disorder - CHADD

 

[JosieJo]

Poor Logan was the victim of one big dysfunctional mess.The combination of a needy selfish mother a racist,violent, controlling bully and a very disturbed youth.
It's so sad to think if the 3 of them hadn't ever have crossed paths logans life could have been so different.

 

[JuicyLucy]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed>

There is considerable comorbidity between ASD, attachment disorder symptoms and abuse within the family, but just to be completely clear all the evidence currently shows that ASD and other neurodevelopmental disorders are a risk factor for abuse, rather than the other way around. Neurodevelopmental disorders are largely genetic in origin.

This fairly recent research paper is a good example of the current thinking: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2516103220902778
Autism and attachment disorder symptoms in the general population: Prevalence, overlap, and burden

 

[RusselSprout]

Attachment Disorders in Children: Causes, Symptoms, and Treatment - HelpGuide.org

This is an easy to read guide about attachment disorder

 

[VixenLeaf]

Attachment Disorders in Children: Causes, Symptoms, and Treatment - HelpGuide.org

This is an easy to read guide about attachment disorder

This seems quite likely imo:
An underdeveloped conscience.Children with reactive attachment disorder may act like they don’t have a conscience and fail to show guilt, regret, or remorse after behaving badly. There’s evidence that left untreated attachment disorders may even lead to personality disorders in adulthood.

 

[Mammaalli]

I wonder how long it will be for sentencing !

 

[Seattle1]

The sentencing hearing and imposing the sentence - Court Stage - Enforcement Guide (England & Wales)

The procedure at court
1. A sentencing hearing will usually follow the procedure below:

• The justice's legal advisor/clerk of the court will inform the court of the charge and the guilty plea or verdict.
• The representative for the prosecution (you or a lawyer) will speak first. You will outline the facts of the case, including the statutory requirements, extent of the breach(es) and any injuries caused. You should bring the Definitive Guidance (see later) to the attention of the court including the prosecution's view on the offence category (based on culpability and harm) highlight any aggravating or other relevant features, referring to the sentencing information you have previously served. You may mention any mitigating features that you accept are present and, if necessary, rebut any others that you anticipate the defence may raise. You will draw the court's attention to information relevant to sentence, including any statement of the effect of the offence on the victim, the victim's family or others See earlier re the role of the prosecution'). You should also apply for costs, providing the court at this stage (if you have not already done so) with a schedule of prosecution costs.

• The representative for the defence will then make a plea in mitigation (see 'Mitigation' below).
• The prosecution has the opportunity to make any comments in return. Whilst it is often unnecessary to make any such comments, if the defence have strayed from the basis of plea, or have raised new and specific matters on which the prosecution can help the court, comments in reply will be appropriate (see below).
• The court will pass sentence.
• Costs will be dealt with.

2. For guidance on procedures to be followed in relation to specific penalties, see the section Penalties.

3. You should always follow the etiquette of the court. For example, you should not interrupt when the defence is speaking. For guidance on presenting a case before the magistrates' court, see Court procedure.

[...]

See link above for more about victim personal statements, mitigation, and more...

 

[Cherwell]

I wonder how long it will be for sentencing !

Not too long, hopefully. But it's the reports on the youth that are going to cause most delay.

 

[Moll]

The sentencing hearing and imposing the sentence - Court Stage - Enforcement Guide (England & Wales)

The procedure at court
1. A sentencing hearing will usually follow the procedure below:

• The justice's legal advisor/clerk of the court will inform the court of the charge and the guilty plea or verdict.
• The representative for the prosecution (you or a lawyer) will speak first. You will outline the facts of the case, including the statutory requirements, extent of the breach(es) and any injuries caused. You should bring the Definitive Guidance (see later) to the attention of the court including the prosecution's view on the offence category (based on culpability and harm) highlight any aggravating or other relevant features, referring to the sentencing information you have previously served. You may mention any mitigating features that you accept are present and, if necessary, rebut any others that you anticipate the defence may raise. You will draw the court's attention to information relevant to sentence, including any statement of the effect of the offence on the victim, the victim's family or others See earlier re the role of the prosecution'). You should also apply for costs, providing the court at this stage (if you have not already done so) with a schedule of prosecution costs.

• The representative for the defence will then make a plea in mitigation (see 'Mitigation' below).
• The prosecution has the opportunity to make any comments in return. Whilst it is often unnecessary to make any such comments, if the defence have strayed from the basis of plea, or have raised new and specific matters on which the prosecution can help the court, comments in reply will be appropriate (see below).
• The court will pass sentence.
• Costs will be dealt with.

2. For guidance on procedures to be followed in relation to specific penalties, see the section Penalties.

3. You should always follow the etiquette of the court. For example, you should not interrupt when the defence is speaking. For guidance on presenting a case before the magistrates' court, see Court procedure.

[...]

See link above for more about victim personal statements, mitigation, and more...

I was a bit puzzled by the 'you' addressed in this and on looking at the link realise that this is from the Health and Safety Executive Enforcement Guide. In a criminal court with QCs representing both prosecution and defence it isn't going to be exactly like this.

I think this link to the Crown Prosecution Service site may be more relevant here:
Sentencing - Overview | The Crown Prosecution Service

and this:
Sentencing - Mandatory life sentences in Murder cases | The Crown Prosecution Service

 

[Seattle1]

I was a bit puzzled by the 'you' addressed in this and on looking at the link realise that this is from the Health and Safety Executive Enforcement Guide. In a criminal court with QCs representing both prosecution and defence it isn't going to be exactly like this.

I think this link to the Crown Prosecution Service site may be more relevant here:
Sentencing - Overview | The Crown Prosecution Service

and this:
Sentencing - Mandatory life sentences in Murder cases | The Crown Prosecution Service

Sorry if the post was unclear.

The intent of the post/link was specific to an actual "sentencing hearing," and not the penalty and/or law defining the set terms for incarceration.

I thought the posted info from the link was clear the content was directed to court professionals and perhaps should have added a disclaimer.

ETA: Adding sentencing questions/answers from a private defence attorney

What will happen at my sentencing hearing? — Defence-Barrister.co.uk

Where a defendant has been found guilty following a trial or has pleaded guilty to the offence, the defendant will be sentenced. Sentencing procedure in both the magistrates’ court and the Crown Court is very similar.

 

[Moll]

<modsnip>
I know the HSE advice is to do with procedures, not sentencing (although it does include a link to a Penalties section, dealing with HSE offences). So is the Crown Prosecution information: it deals with the hearing procedures, including the role the prosecution will be expected to play. The second link deals with actual sentencing guidelines.

Of course there are basic principles in common between different courts and tribunals in England and Wales, but a sentencing hearing will be different in many respects and it is not especially helpful to look at a site relating to different environment when the relevant one is available. Re magistrate's courts, a major difference is that magistrates are lay people who have a legal advisor, and of course the offences are very much less serious.

Why not look at the relevant site which is actually dealing with sentencing procedures in Crown courts and with murder cases?

 

[Moll]

An extract from
Sentencing - Overview | The Crown Prosecution Service

The role of the prosecutor in sentencing
The prosecutor has an important responsibility to ensure fairness both to the defendant and the victim regarding the acceptability of pleas and assistance to the court at sentence.

The Attorney General’s Guidelines on the Acceptance of Pleas and the Prosecutor’s Role in the Sentencing Exercise paragraph B:4 provides:

“…The prosecution advocate represents the public interest, and should be ready to assist the court to reach its decision as to the appropriate sentence. This will include drawing the court’s attention to:

• any victim personal statement or other information available to the prosecution advocate as to the impact of the offence on the victim;
• where appropriate, to any evidence of the impact of the offending on a community;
• any statutory provisions relevant to the offender and the offences under consideration;
• any relevant sentencing guidelines and guideline cases; and
• the aggravating and mitigating factors of the offence under consideration.”

The role of the Prosecutor is also covered by the Criminal Procedure Rules: Rule 24.11 and 25.11 respectively for the Magistrates’ Court and the Crown Court.

In Qayum [2010] EWCA Crim 2237, the Court of Appeal explained the importance of advocates being alert to the maximum sentencing powers available to judges, as it is the duty of both prosecution and defence advocates to check the court’s sentencing powers and alert the court accordingly. It is the prosecution advocate’s duty to apply for or to remind the court of its powers in respect of appropriate ancillary orders, for example, compensation orders, criminal behaviour orders or confiscation orders. When considering which ancillary orders to apply for, prosecution advocate must always have regard to the victim’s needs, including the question of their future protection.

 

[ChloLo]

Ultimately it will depend on the availability of whichever experts the court instructs to undertake evaluations of any of the defendants and how quickly the experts are able to complete and provide a report. The legal professionals will need time to review the report(s) before any sentencing hearing. Hopefully it won’t take too long.

 

[Planet24]

<modsnip> Must be very messed up, no doubt from his past. Huge mistakes made in this case not to safeguard Logan and the teenager himself. He clearly needed to be in a secure unit with specialist professionals

 

[altyg]

I wonder how much longer it will be for the sentencing hearing?

 

[Seattle1]

I wonder how much longer it will be for the sentencing hearing?

IMO, if the intent is to sentence all three defendants at the same hearing, any pre-sentence medical report for the teen will probably require more time than the typical defendant. As a general rule, CPR provides for the Court to pass sentence at the earliest opportunity, but I don't believe the court can defer sentencing any longer than 6 months.

The Criminal Procedure Rules 2020

The Criminal Procedure Rules 2020:consolidate the Criminal Procedure Rules 2015, S.I. 2015/1490, with the amendments made by S.I. 2016/120, 2016/705, 2017/144, 2017/282, 2017/755, 2017/915, 2018/132, 2018/847, 2019/143, 2019/1119 and 2020/32; andinclude the further amendments listed beneath.

www.legislation.gov.uk

 

[Moll]

No news on sentencing but a BBC report on today's announcement that there won't be a review of children's services in Wales:

Logan Mwangi: FM rejects call for social services review

Calls for inquiry prompted by death of Logan Mwangi rejected by First Minister Mark Drakeford.

www.bbc.co.uk