UK - Lucy Letby - Post-Conviction Statutory Inquiry

[Tortoise]

21/11/2024 – Transcript of Week 10 Day 4 | The Thirlwall Inquiry

Transcript of Part B Evidence: - Lyn Simpson, Former Executive Regional Managing Director for the North (NHS Improvement) - Ian Pace, Former legal adviser (Solicitor) to the Countess of Chester Hospital - Corinne Slingo, Former legal adviser (Solicitor) to the Countess of Chester Hospital -...

thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk

About Tony Chamber's salary -

Q. I understand that you write in this email in the large paragraph that: "Tony Chambers is potentially looking to be seconded to a different organisation to that of our previous discussions ..."Just pause there for a moment. You understood that in fact that he was going to go somewhere differently, he went to Northern Care Alliance. So he didn't in fact take up either of the placements you had found for him.

A. Correct

Q. "... and for a longer period. While overall approval of the terms of settlement sit with you and your Remuneration Committee I would advise that rehabilitation periods linked to similar settlements in the NHS seldom last more than one year especially where these are funded solely by the employing Trust and please remember as his current salary is above [a figure is given] the host organisation for his secondment will need to seek approval or comment for his salary whilst on secondment."

[...]

LADY JUSTICE THIRLWALL: Just before we continue with the next witness, there was a document which had been redacted which we looked at quite near the end of the evidence of the last witness, it was a figure and I have asked that that be unredacted because it is plainly relevant and ought to be a matter of public record. Now, Mr Bershadski.


Still redacted in the document despite Lady Thirlwall's instruction!! (last page) :-

INQ0101357 – Pages 1 – 5, 10 – 11 and 24 of Chronology from correspondence involving Lyn Simpson in September 2018 | The Thirlwall Inquiry

Examining the events at the Countess of Chester Hospital and their implications following the trial, and subsequent convictions, of former neonatal nurse Lucy Letby of murder and attempted murder of babies at the hospital.

thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk

 

[Parker Knoll]

Wasn’t he on about £160k a year or similar iirc ?
I’m sure I’ve read that figure somewhere.

 

[Tortoise]

LOOK at the LINE-UP for next week!

Week 11 – Part B evidence​

Monday 25 November	Alison Kelly, Director of Nursing
Tuesday 26 November	Susan Hodkinson, Director of People and Organisational Development Dr Oliver Rackham, Consultant Neonatologist
Wednesday 27 November	Tony Chambers, Chief Executive Officer
Thursday 28 November	Ian Harvey, Medical Director
Friday 29 November	Ian Harvey, Medical Director (continued)

 

[Sweeper2000]

Can anyone explain to me what Ian Harvey role has been? I know Tony Chambers really did act in a way that stopped the appropriate pathways being followed but not sure about IH.

 

[Parker Knoll]

Ahh … double bubble for Ian !

 

[marynnu]

Lyn Simpson, my God. What a complete idiot.

 

[JosieJo]

Having worked in the nhs I get so worked up reading it which is why I haven't been following in too much detail...its all so common.. incompetent idiots being moved around from trust to trust.
Trusts being more invested in a "no blame culture" than the impact these fools are having.
Giving people far too much slack and "opportunities to learn and improve" when they should be shown the door

 

[marynnu]

Having worked in the nhs I get so worked up reading it which is why I haven't been following in too much detail...its all so common.. incompetent idiots being moved around from trust to trust.
Trusts being more invested in a "no blame culture" than the impact these fools are having.
Giving people far too much slack and "opportunities to learn and improve" when they should be shown the door

Ironically, when I worked on NNU I sometimes stated to colleagues that if we performed like the managers & pen pushers we'd have a load of dead babies on our hands.

 

[Anxala]

Lyn Simpson, my God. What a complete idiot.

The combination of stupidity and arrogance is breathtaking.

The real horror is that that seems to have been a very common combo amongst those who enabled LL.

 

[Tortoise]

I've only just come across BBC sounds updates from the Inquiry. A list of episodes available.

BBC News - Lucy Letby: The Public Inquiry - Available now

Available episodes of Lucy Letby: The Public Inquiry

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Tortoise]

Dr Jayaram's evidence

includes recordings from the inquiry

 

[Anxala]

Re the Masonic/Freemason aspect, I don't know whether this is on here or not (possibly included in the video links?) but since I've just come across this, posting it for anyone, myself included, who wasn't entirely clear as to what the ref to the Masons or the connection was. This is in ref to Steven Cross, former director of corporate and legal services at the Countess of Chester:

Dr Stephen Brearey, clinical lead of the neonatal unit, suggested that Mr Cross had rapidly ascended from a junior role, questioning whether the hospital had adhered to any processes "in terms of fit and proper candidates for executive roles", and mentioned hearing that he had been demoted from a senior rank in the police force to a constable. Dr Brearey stated that there was a perception among hospital staff that there might be "deals going on behind the scenes".

Lucy Letby judge quizzed over hospital director Freemason link during inquest

'I was not asked to advise hospital over Lucy Letby because I'm a Freemason'

uk.news.yahoo.com

 

[Sweeper2000]

Cheers Anxala.

To be honest I don't think Dr Brearey is being unreasonable. That's exactly the kind of thing they do. I lost a job due to not doing the handshake that way. Police are particularly well known for it. Jmo.

 

[katydid23]

Lucy Letby hospital outlines 15 reasons why ‘baby killer’ was innocent​

A neonatal ward manager at Lucy Letby’s hospital outlined 15 reasons why the nurse could not be to blame for the deaths and collapse of babies, it has emerged.

Documents released for the Thirlwall Inquiry, which is examining how incidents at the Countess of Chester could have been prevented, show that Eirian Powell, Letby’s boss, was unconvinced by allegations against the nurse.

She distributed a document entitled Neonatal Unit review 2015-2016, in May 2016, which gave 15 reasons why it was unlikely there was a baby killer on the ward.

“There is no evidence whatsoever against LL (Lucy Letby) other than coincidence,” she wrote.

Lucy Letby hospital outlines 15 reasons why ‘baby killer’ was innocent

A neonatal ward manager at Lucy Letby’s hospital outlined 15 reasons why the nurse could not be to blame for the deaths and collapse of babies, it has emerged.

uk.news.yahoo.com

 

[marynnu]

Eirian Powell acted like she'd never set foot on a neonatal unit. What's the matter with her? Any experienced neonatal nurse would know this is nonsense. And much as nursing staff get very expert at what they do, to dismiss consultant concerns in this way is beyond arrogant.

 

[Parker Knoll]

Knapton is an utter DISGRACE.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Having worked in the nhs I get so worked up reading it which is why I haven't been following in too much detail...its all so common.. incompetent idiots being moved around from trust to trust.
Trusts being more invested in a "no blame culture" than the impact these fools are having.
Giving people far too much slack and "opportunities to learn and improve" when they should be shown the door

Exactly the same as most public departments.

As is usual, regardless of how scathing this report eventually is, I'm sure that nothing will change. The NHS will issue a cheesy statement that they don't really mean which will end with, lessons will be learned. Which they won't be, of course.

The only way anything will change is when the law changes so that meaningful criminal penalty is attached to bad management decisions in public sector positions. At present there is essentially no penalty for making obviously bad or dangerous decisions.

 

[May72031]

What on earth is going on at The Telegraph?

 

[Tortoise]

09:40​

Image source,EPA
Image caption,
The inquiry is being chaired by Lady Justice Thirlwall
Hello and welcome.

We're continuing our live coverage of the public inquiry that follows the conviction of former nurse Lucy Letby for murdering seven babies and attempting to kill seven others.

Today we'll hear from Letby's former manager, Alison Kelly, who was director of nursing at the Countess of Chester Hospital. She has not spoken publicly about the events before.

Letby’s trial raised questions about the way managers at the hospital handled concerns that consultants were raising about the nurse, as well the NHS’s handling of the case.

It’ll be for the public inquiry, chaired by Lady Justice Thirlwall to examine that, and whether there are questions for the wider NHS.

Inquiry about to begin​

10:02​

Judith Moritz
Special correspondent, reporting from the inquiry

The hearing room at Liverpool Town Hall is filling up with benches full of lawyers representing all of the core participants at the Thirlwall Inquiry.

This grand room in the 18th century building is normally used as the large ballroom. There are chandeliers overhead, and elaborate filigree décor.

The room is now hushed and the Chair, Lady Justice Thirlwall has just entered.

Who will we be hearing from today?​

10:03​

The only witness today is Alison Kelly, former director of Nursing at the Countess of Chester Hospital at the time of Lucy Letby’s crimes.

Kelly begins giving evidence​

10:05​

Alison Kelly, former director of Nursing at the Countess of Chester Hospital at the time of Lucy Letby’s crimes, has begun giving evidence and today's hearing is underway.

She is being questioned by Counsel to the Inquiry, Nicholas de la Poer KC.

10:05​

Image caption,
Alison Kelly arriving at the inquiry this morning
The inquiry is now hearing from Alison Kelly, who was director of nursing at the Countess of Chester Hospital and Letby's former manager.

She has been accused, along with other hospital managers, of ignoring warnings about Letby.

She was suspended from her position with the Rochdale Care Organisation last year "in light of information" which emerged during the trial and following the announcement of the inquiry, NHS England said at the time.

She has more than 30 years of experience as a nurse and was director of nursing and quality at the Countess of Chester Hospital for eight years before starting her current role, the Northern Care Alliance NHS Foundation Trust's website says.

Letby's former boss accepts she made 'misleading' statements after nurse raised complaint

Alison Kelly was director of nursing at the Countess of Chester Hospital where Letby murdered seven babies and attempted to murder seven others.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Tortoise]

'My decisions were made with the best intentions,' Kelly says
10:06​

Alison Kelly has asked if she can say something before the formalities get underway.

She says: “I would like to express my condolences to all the families and I’m really sorry for all the distress they’ve experienced over the last few years and are currently experiencing as we sit here today.

"I didn’t get everything right at the time, however the decisions I made were done with the best intentions.

"I do really appreciate having the opportunity to be part of this inquiry and share my reflections and to contribute to recommendations going forwards.”

Kelly quizzed about whether possibility of deliberate harm was raised with her
10:23​

Image source,Thirwall Inquiry


Kelly is asked about a meeting she had with lead neonatal consultant Dr Stephen Brearey in May 2016.

It's put to Kelly that Dr Brearey raised his concern that Letby may be the cause of the rise in mortality on the neonatal unit

Kelly says the doctor never talked about deliberate harm but he was worried about the increase in mortality.

The counsel asks that if the rise in mortality was linked to Letby, if Kelly agrees there were only two possibilities - one to do with Letby being incompetent, the other being deliberate harm.

Kelly says she agrees.

The counsel to the inquiry asks if the doctor raised the possibility that Letby may have been deliberately harming babies.

Kelly says she would "push back" on that, saying there was never any clarity in him articulating his true concerns at that time.

Image source,Thirwall Inquiry
The questioning continues.

De la Poer asks Kelly: "So he [Dr Brearey] was raising the possibility that Letby may be deliberately harming babies, is that right?"

Kelly replies: "I would push back on that and say there was never any clarity in him articulating his true concerns at that time."

De la Poer continues: "It must be the case that what he was saying is that Letby may have been deliberately harming babies?"

Kelly: "Maybe, yes."

De la Poer: "And so as to the issue of inadvertent or incompetent harm you had very strong reassurances didn’t you from (nursing bosses) that incompetence was unlikely."

Kelly: "Yes."

Kelly was safeguarding lead
10:26​

Alison Kelly was the executive lead for safeguarding at the time. She has accepted that when concerns about the rise in mortality on the neonatal unit were brought to her in May and June 2016, “it just didn’t feel like a safeguarding concern to me”.

She says that the consultants who brought their concerns to her didn’t articulate what their concerns were.

Kelly continues: “There was no articulation of the actual issues, nobody had seen her do anything. There was terms used like ‘gut feeling’ and ‘drawer of doom’ which didn’t pinpoint any issues to do with Letby so on the basis of that I didn’t have any facts or evidence that I could base my decisions on."

Kelly insists she took safeguarding duties seriously
10:37​

Kelly says she accepts that, looking back, there was a safeguarding issue and she didn’t treat it as such.

“But neither did anybody else. I take my duties very, very seriously," she says, adding: "I was still relying on the teams from the unit upwards to bring any safeguarding concerns to me and nobody did."

The counsel to the inquiry puts it to Kelly that at the time consultants thought Letby was murdering babies: "That was their central message to you."

Kelly responds: "In June they talked about deliberate harm, yes."

The counsel to the inquiry asks: "And deliberate harm to a human that is now dead is murder, isn't it?"

"Yes," Kelly says.

Letby's former boss accepts she made 'misleading' statements after nurse raised complaint

Alison Kelly was director of nursing at the Countess of Chester Hospital where Letby murdered seven babies and attempted to murder seven others.

www.bbc.co.uk