UK - Lucy Letby - Post-Conviction Statutory Inquiry

[cottonweaver]

I am surprised about todays revelations.
Being failed as a student nurse. We'd been given the impression that she was a studious and determined pupil

' Lucy Letby failed her final year student nurse placement because she was "cold" and lacking empathy with patients and families, a public inquiry has heard.
Her assessor, Nicola Lightfoot, told how she felt Letby did not have the "overall characteristics" to become a successful nurse.
The Thirlwall Inquiry heard Letby later passed a retrieval placement after requesting a new assessor, claiming she felt "intimidated" by Ms Lightfoot. '
In her final report on the then University of Chester student in July 2011, Ms Lightfoot wrote: "At the moment Lucy requires much more support, prompting and supervision than I would expect at this stage to allow her to qualify as a competent practitioner."

She said she found that Letby's clinical knowledge was "not where it should be", and that she "struggled" to retain information on medication dosages and to recognise side effects of common drugs.
Would like to hear more from Lightfoot on these ' overall characteristics'

Lucy Letby failed nurse placement for being 'cold'

The nurse was described as "lacking the natural warmth" and empathy needed to care for children.

www.bbc.co.uk

Not surprised about the third revelation - claiming her failure was due to a personality clash rather than due to any deficiency on Letby's part
Guardian report gives a little more but will wait for the release of the transcript to get an accurate picture

' Giving evidence on Tuesday, Lightfoot described how she mentored Letby in her final placement as a student nurse in 2011 and failed her due to concerns about her competency.
Another of Letby’s mentors, Sarah Ann Murphy....said it was unusual for a student nurse to fail their final placement and that Letby appealed against her fail, claiming there had been a “clash of personalities” between her and Lightfoot.
Murphy said Letby went on to graduate successfully from her student training after completing the three competencies that she had previously failed.'

Lucy Letby discussed babies’ deaths in ‘excited’ way, inquiry told

Deputy children’s ward manager says she had ‘never seen a response like that’ to death of a child

www.theguardian.com

 

[Sweeper2000]

RSBM

Also matches up with Kathryn de Beger's evidence - 09/10/2024 – Transcript of Week 5 Day 3 | The Thirlwall Inquiry

Q. Given that you knew at this time that the allegation was that Letby had deliberately killed babies on the neonatal unit, did it give you any cause for concern that she was displaying this distress at the anniversary of a baby death?

A. No, not at all, because she -- it was in the context of she said that she was feeling particularly distressed but how much more distressed would the parents be at the loss of their baby, that's how she framed it, and -- but we had no other conversation about that.

Q. -- in this role. In that period of time, so from when you started in 2010 until July 2017, how many times had you come across a situation where a member of staff was displaying this kind of distress around the anniversary of the death of a patient, is that at all a normal situation for you to confront?

A. I can't recall another situation, no.

---

I think people who don't feel empathy would mistake what empathy is.

Like these instances in the trial - (links in media thread)

Nick Johnson asks Lucy Letby why she made those comments. She replies "I was trying in that awful situation to have a little bit of normality. I was referring to a positive memory. Baby I had enjoyed her first bath. It wasn’t meant with any malice"
Lucy Letby: "You’d still talk to babies as though they were alive"
Nick Jonson KC: "Do you understand the difference between life and death?
Lucy Letby: "Yes"

A female consultant said Letby was "animated" and "so excited" asking about a memory box and her behaviour was "inappropriate". In cross-examination, the 'talking enthusiastically' was said that it would 'soften the blow' for the grieving parents who had lost two of the three triplets.

So interesting.

Good to note that during the trial we learned Lucy didn't actually have particularly good relations with most of the parents as well right? So that's still present many years later and that that didn't change with experience and presumably confidence gained through it. You can mark that I think, she thought things about people that just wasn't true. Maybe a mark of low empathy?

It might be worth noting that she also said that to de berger but only once and then never again? It's kind of contradictory imo. It's a year or so since the event in question which implies the memory has been present on an ongoing basis for some time suggesting she suffered but only mentioned once? More like a non issue she is focusing on in conversation to present her fake empathy and "make the image".

she's so keen on presenting herself that way isn't she? Full of empathy and concern but in reality so cold and so detached. That's a particularly long time to have that in mind. I wouldn't say she was very good at it either. I wonder if the whole "conscientious" thing people said about her was just that? A total and conscious ruse with that failed last placement being the root of it. An appeal to approval both personally and professionally. The level of strategy necessary for it to be like that is unreal. Chessboard indeed.

That baby bath interaction. It would seem the level of positive emotion she was experiencing is just so strange. Despite the lies in it ie her trying to pass off as normal its just so inappropriate that it's almost entirely irrespective of what the parents would have been going through. The definition of a lack of empathy. We see that in your last example as well Nd was a part of what got her the big G's imo. That arrogance as well, detachment is key in it as arrogance imo is almost a mocking detachment from the lower "other" in mind.

All of that and I mean everything and I get the impression she is getting some form of lift from the events perhaps her motivation? I can't seem to place malevolence as the root as I never got the impression that she had formed any particular view on the parents that might make one so inclined so full of hate she would use the babies as a way of getting to the intended victim. It's passive aggressive. I could take a guess that it was exciting for her to either kill or to simply be around death and be a part of it that would make a good motivation to find silent victims as you say. Judging by the mentioned inappropriate "animation" contrasted to the detached demeanour seen as "expressionless" by staff we heard of today there is good reason to think it imo.

Why the unusual for her "animation" in times that from an empathetic person would make them more respectfull and considerate probably both meaning in part less animation in respect of the other.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Now that we know that she failed her final placement (and the fact that SAM said it was "unusual" for a failure at that point), I think that that perhaps puts her "Not Good Enough" notes into better context?

 

[Sweeper2000]

Not sure it was an "appeal" as such. From the couple of articles I've read it's pretty standard that you get to re-do the points you fail on and if you pass them in four weeks they pass you.

Having said that, if you've been failed because you lack empathy and are cold and emotionless towards parents with desperately sick babies then I can't really get my head round how you can change that, let alone within four weeks.

Once of the articles mentioned that part of why she failed was because she wasn't getting drug calcs or side effects right - those I can see how you can knuckle-down and pass as it's purely academic. Not having the right personality for the job is a different matter but, on the other hand, it's really just someone's opinion.

I definitely think that she's the type who'd have kicked off big style had they have failed her at that point, though, especially if she's passed the academic stuff and was failed just on being unemotional.

It may be looked at as more a decision based on the majority of the students work. In other words if academically sound and shows signs of improvement in work on these somewhat "subjective" qualities ie empathy then you get a pass. Technically no need for a nurse to have a bubbly personality.

 

[Parker Knoll]

This is the full article here.

Lucy Letby discussed babies’ deaths in ‘excited’ way, inquiry told

Deputy children’s ward manager says she had ‘never seen a response like that’ to death of a child

www.theguardian.com

 

[Sweeper2000]

Now that's exactly the type of thing I meant when I was saying that very little has come out about her, let alone things which paint her a less than stellar light as regards other people's feelings towards her!

I suspect that this may be the crack in the door that will allow lots of stuff from her earlier life to enter the room.

My guess is that this will have been a common thing with her from a very young age.

I'm not expecting anything fromQ her 0y

 

[Baby baby Jane]

I am surprised about todays revelations.
Being failed as a student nurse. We'd been given the impression that she was a studious and determined pupil

' Lucy Letby failed her final year student nurse placement because she was "cold" and lacking empathy with patients and families, a public inquiry has heard.
Her assessor, Nicola Lightfoot, told how she felt Letby did not have the "overall characteristics" to become a successful nurse.
The Thirlwall Inquiry heard Letby later passed a retrieval placement after requesting a new assessor, claiming she felt "intimidated" by Ms Lightfoot. '
In her final report on the then University of Chester student in July 2011, Ms Lightfoot wrote: "At the moment Lucy requires much more support, prompting and supervision than I would expect at this stage to allow her to qualify as a competent practitioner."

She said she found that Letby's clinical knowledge was "not where it should be", and that she "struggled" to retain information on medication dosages and to recognise side effects of common drugs.
Would like to hear more from Lightfoot on these ' overall characteristics'

Lucy Letby failed nurse placement for being 'cold'

The nurse was described as "lacking the natural warmth" and empathy needed to care for children.

www.bbc.co.uk

Not surprised about the third revelation - claiming her failure was due to a personality clash rather than due to any deficiency on Letby's part
Guardian report gives a little more but will wait for the release of the transcript to get an accurate picture

' Giving evidence on Tuesday, Lightfoot described how she mentored Letby in her final placement as a student nurse in 2011 and failed her due to concerns about her competency.
Another of Letby’s mentors, Sarah Ann Murphy....said it was unusual for a student nurse to fail their final placement and that Letby appealed against her fail, claiming there had been a “clash of personalities” between her and Lightfoot.
Murphy said Letby went on to graduate successfully from her student training after completing the three competencies that she had previously failed.'

Lucy Letby discussed babies’ deaths in ‘excited’ way, inquiry told

Deputy children’s ward manager says she had ‘never seen a response like that’ to death of a child

www.theguardian.com

Wonder if Ms Lightfoot got any “grief” for refusing to pass LL (suspect LL would suggest bullying) …
also wonder how many fail, then complain, then get a pass …
Like did LL complaint reflect badly on Lightfoot … Really, Lightfoot was right and LL should never been allowed to “pass”

 

[ColourPurple]

Now that we know that she failed her final placement (and the fact that SAM said it was "unusual" for a failure at that point), I think that that perhaps puts her "Not Good Enough" notes into better context?

Yup and her rage when even after having completed her ICU training she wasn’t considered good enough to be in room 1. IMO Baby C’s murder perfectly demonstrated “I killed them on purpose because I’m not good enough to care for them” .

 

[cottonweaver]

Wonder if Ms Lightfoot got any “grief” for refusing to pass LL (suspect LL would suggest bullying) …
also wonder how many fail, then complain, then get a pass …
Like did LL complaint reflect badly on Lightfoot … Really, Lightfoot was right and LL should never been allowed to “pass”

I don't know but am not 100% on Ms Lightfoot atm, I'll have to wait for the transcript.

One example from the same Guardian link
June 2016, Letby's comments after the death of the two triplet boys has Lightfoot shocked & emphatic
" I had never – and I have never since – seen a response like that from a nurse involved in a child’s passing.”
But also June 2016, shrugs
' Another medic, referred to as Nurse ZC, said on Monday that she mentioned the connection between Letby and the unusual deaths to Lightfoot in June 2016 and asked: “Is it not concerning?”
Nurse ZC said Lightfoot “shrugged her shoulders” at the comment and Nurse ZC did not hear anything further.'
Lightfoot said on Tuesday she did not recall the conversation. She said she warned staff in briefings not to indulge in “malicious gossip” about Letby but denied these were to “silence anybody”.


anyway, there's further detail in M.E.N.
2024 'I wasn’t prepared to put my professional reputation and registration on the line at that point.”
2011 “However I strongly feel if Lucy continues to take on board feedback, continues to work on her weaker areas and develop her practice accordingly then this is achievable in the future.”
( 4 weeks later, assessor swap and Letby is passed by a colleague )

Lucy Letby noted as 'cold' and lacking empathy in final year as student nurse

Letby did not have the “overall characteristics” to become a successful registered nurse, her assessor found

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

 

[Tortoise]

Yup and her rage when even after having completed her ICU training she wasn’t considered good enough to be in room 1. IMO Baby C’s murder perfectly demonstrated “I killed them on purpose because I’m not good enough to care for them” .

Yes

"Mel said the same and Nurse W let her go." (in room 1)
"I know how I feel...people should respect that"

INQ0000101 – Pages 1 – 2 and 6 – 8 of Letby’s messages with a number of colleagues on the neonatal unit, dated between 12/06/2015 and 13/06/2015 | The Thirlwall Inquiry

Examining the events at the Countess of Chester Hospital and their implications following the trial, and subsequent convictions, of former neonatal nurse Lucy Letby of murder and attempted murder of babies at the hospital.

thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk

Kathryn Percival-Calderbank shift-leader:
- nurse Lucy Letby then shouted at me for doing so because she felt she didn't want to be in outside nursery she wanted to be in the intensive care setting because she felt that it was boring looking after the special care babies where --

10/10/2024 – Transcript of Week 5 Day 4 | The Thirlwall Inquiry

Transcript of Part B Evidence: - Melanie Taylor – Registered Nurse - Ashleigh Hudson – Registered Nurse - Kathryn Percival-Calderbank – - Registered Nurse - Kate Bissell – Registered Nurse - Elizabeth Marshall – Neonatal Assistant

thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk

 

[Sweeper2000]

Yup and her rage when even after having completed her ICU training she wasn’t considered good enough to be in room 1. IMO Baby C’s murder perfectly demonstrated “I killed them on purpose because I’m not good enough to care for them” .

Now that's exactly the type of thing I meant when I was saying that very little has come out about her, let alone things which paint her a less than stellar light as regards other people's feelings towards her!

I suspect that this may be the crack in the door that will allow lots of stuff from her earlier life to enter the room.

My guess is that this will have been a common thing with her from a very young age.

Meant to say I'm not expecting anything too out if place in her past tbh. No torturing animals etc. Even the police said she was "beige" and I think that will stand as true. Her friends as well never noticed anything and I believe them in their observations. Whatever is up with it whatever she was getting out of it peaked in those years and was probably suppressed her entire life. I do think it's been there a long time though. I do wonder if her actions weren't what she was working so hard for all that time.

Might be interesting from an academic point of view that her persona and everything was totally fake. The definition of a "wolf in sheep's clothing".

 

[cottonweaver]

2013 Morphine OD error

Lucy Letby gave baby 'overdose' two years before murders

Lucy Letby was reportedly "unhappy" at being told she could no longer administer controlled drugs.

www.bbc.co.uk

'Lucy Letby gave a baby 10 times the prescribed dose of morphine "in error" two years before her killing spree began, a public inquiry has heard.

The nurse was then unhappy at being told she could no longer administer controlled drugs at the Countess of Chester Hospital after the incident in July 2013.
Letby received extra training after the incident.

Yvonne Farmer, who was practice development nurse at the time, told the inquiry at Liverpool Town Hall it was a "very serious error"
The mistake was spotted quickly and the baby suffered no ill-effects, the inquiry heard.
Ms Farmer said Letby was not far into her nursing career at the time, but was outside the period of supervision required by the Nursing and Midwifery Council.

Part of the hospital's response to the incident was to make Letby have extra training with Ms Farmer.
She said: "Lucy Letby was unhappy that she had to refrain from administering controlled drugs [for a period of time]."
When asked if it was normal for a nurse to be unhappy about not administering controlled drugs [in those circumstances], Ms Farmer replied: "Maybe not."
She agreed when asked whether it was important to "recognise when you've made a mistake".
'

 

[Tortoise]

And that article also reports that she gave antibiotics to a baby who was not prescribed them in 2016.

 

[Sweeper2000]

It's strange. Absolutely no reason for this to be left out of the trial unless it's seen as errors within the margins. Presumably as they happened just the once it wasn't really thought of as evidence of incompetence? Any nurses here who could give their experience of that sort for thing?

 

[cottonweaver]

On the 2016 antibiotics case

'unavoidable'
and 'our' (instead of... my )

In an internal document reflecting on what happened Letby wrote: "I feel this situation was unavoidable and care was given to the best of our ability."
( rest of the Letby quote is in MEN)
---------
An extract of MEN's write-up on the 2013 morphine OD ( I can't quote any more due to TOS)

Lucy Letby gave potentially fatal dose of morphine to newborn, inquiry told

An inquiry is underway

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

Letby’s colleague was said to be so “distraught” about the incident that she almost resigned, but Letby was “unhappy” when informed by neonatal unit ward deputy ward manager Yvonne Griffiths that she could not administer controlled drugs until a review had taken place.

A week later, neonatal unit ward manager Eirian Powell apparently informed Letby she could continue working with drugs such as morphine, the inquiry heard.

The next day Letby messaged a colleague, saying: “Thankfully Eirian felt it had been escalated more than it needed to be. Everything is back to how it was."
“I just … have to have more training on using the pumps and it will be on my record for six months. She was very supportive, a case of learning to live with it now and getting my confidence back. I’m on nights this week, still feeling a bit vulnerable and thinking ‘what if’ but I’ll get there in time.”

Counsel to the inquiry Nick de la Poer KC asked Ms Griffiths: “Did you escalate it more than it needed to be?”

“No,” said Ms Griffiths.

She said that Ms Powell was on annual leave when she was informed about a “very serious” incident involving morphine.

Ms Griffiths said: “If that had not been picked up as soon as it was it might have made the baby demise (sic).”

Mr de la Poer said: “Could have been fatal?”

Ms Griffiths replied: “Yes.”

 

[Sweeper2000]

If they know its exactly ten x the prescribed dose does that then mean she got the unit of measurement wrong? So if prescribed 0.1 mg of morphine did she then give 1.0 mg of morphine?

 

[ColourPurple]

If they know its exactly ten x the prescribed dose does that then mean she got the unit of measurement wrong? So if prescribed 0.1 mg of morphine did she then give 1.0 mg of morphine?

But if you were doing it deliberately and wanted a believable back up excuse in case you were to get caught, then making sure it was exactly 10 times the amount so you could claim it was a calculation error would be a good move too

 

[ColourPurple]

It's strange. Absolutely no reason for this to be left out of the trial unless it's seen as errors within the margins. Presumably as they happened just the once it wasn't really thought of as evidence of incompetence? Any nurses here who could give their experience of that sort for thing?

Maybe Myers argued for it not to be included

 

[ColourPurple]

On the 2016 antibiotics case

'unavoidable'
and 'our' (instead of... my )

In an internal document reflecting on what happened Letby wrote: "I feel this situation was unavoidable and care was given to the best of our ability."
( rest of the Letby quote is in MEN)
---------
An extract of MEN's write-up on the 2013 morphine OD ( I can't quote any more due to TOS)

Lucy Letby gave potentially fatal dose of morphine to newborn, inquiry told

An inquiry is underway

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

Letby’s colleague was said to be so “distraught” about the incident that she almost resigned, but Letby was “unhappy” when informed by neonatal unit ward deputy ward manager Yvonne Griffiths that she could not administer controlled drugs until a review had taken place.

A week later, neonatal unit ward manager Eirian Powell apparently informed Letby she could continue working with drugs such as morphine, the inquiry heard.

The next day Letby messaged a colleague, saying: “Thankfully Eirian felt it had been escalated more than it needed to be. Everything is back to how it was."
“I just … have to have more training on using the pumps and it will be on my record for six months. She was very supportive, a case of learning to live with it now and getting my confidence back. I’m on nights this week, still feeling a bit vulnerable and thinking ‘what if’ but I’ll get there in time.”

Counsel to the inquiry Nick de la Poer KC asked Ms Griffiths: “Did you escalate it more than it needed to be?”

“No,” said Ms Griffiths.

She said that Ms Powell was on annual leave when she was informed about a “very serious” incident involving morphine.

Ms Griffiths said: “If that had not been picked up as soon as it was it might have made the baby demise (sic).”

Mr de la Poer said: “Could have been fatal?”

Ms Griffiths replied: “Yes.”

Good old Powell coming to the rescue again

 

[katydid23]

On the 2016 antibiotics case

'unavoidable'
and 'our' (instead of... my )

In an internal document reflecting on what happened Letby wrote: "I feel this situation was unavoidable and care was given to the best of our ability."
( rest of the Letby quote is in MEN)
---------
An extract of MEN's write-up on the 2013 morphine OD ( I can't quote any more due to TOS)

Lucy Letby gave potentially fatal dose of morphine to newborn, inquiry told

An inquiry is underway

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

Letby’s colleague was said to be so “distraught” about the incident that she almost resigned, but Letby was “unhappy” when informed by neonatal unit ward deputy ward manager Yvonne Griffiths that she could not administer controlled drugs until a review had taken place.

A week later, neonatal unit ward manager Eirian Powell apparently informed Letby she could continue working with drugs such as morphine, the inquiry heard.

The next day Letby messaged a colleague, saying: “Thankfully Eirian felt it had been escalated more than it needed to be. Everything is back to how it was."
“I just … have to have more training on using the pumps and it will be on my record for six months. She was very supportive, a case of learning to live with it now and getting my confidence back. I’m on nights this week, still feeling a bit vulnerable and thinking ‘what if’ but I’ll get there in time.”

Counsel to the inquiry Nick de la Poer KC asked Ms Griffiths: “Did you escalate it more than it needed to be?”

“No,” said Ms Griffiths.

She said that Ms Powell was on annual leave when she was informed about a “very serious” incident involving morphine.

Ms Griffiths said: “If that had not been picked up as soon as it was it might have made the baby demise (sic).”

Mr de la Poer said: “Could have been fatal?”

Ms Griffiths replied: “Yes.”

I can't help but wonder if that 10x Morphine incident was truly a mistake. Could she have done it impulsively?