UK - Lucy Letby - Post-Conviction Statutory Inquiry

[Legal]

Not sure if this has already been posted, but very interesting comments in nurse Ashleigh's statement (pp 90/91). She's basically saying because she was new, she assumed so many babies collapsing and dying was the norm, contrary to what she had been led to believe during her studies. However, later on in her career, she realised that this was not the case at all. Melanie Taylor was also new, but the experienced nurses such as Eirann Powell must have known this wasn't normal.

 

[Legal]

Probably both. If she is publicly stating that the consultant's, who were demanding that Lucy be taken off the floor after she killed two of the triplets, the very day she returned from vacation, are the 'difficult ones' ----instead of the heroic ones, than she is delusional, imo.

Didn't we also just hear that EP supported Lucy being cleared immediately, allowing her to give out controlled meds, even after she made a potentially serious mistake doing so? Blows my mind. She said the incident was exaggerated.

It seems to me that EP for some reason had such a deeply-rooted hatred of the doctors/consultants that she would protect the nurses against any accusation no matter what, because getting one over on the consultants was all that mattered. And she still doesn't seem to have budged from that viewpoint despite everything that has come to light since the trial! She seems to have had an "us and them" mindset regarding the nurses/consultants and favourites/non-favourites.

I wonder who was protecting her and if she received any complaints?

 

[cottonweaver]

Eirian Powell's 'creme de la creme ' Lucy Letby

I did consider whether that phrase was an exaggeration for the police - to assist Letby.
Also wondered whether Letby was mainly valued because of her willingness to do overtime & get managers out of a jam.
Did Powell really believe it or was she exaggerating? I don't know.

Anyway, reading the transcript, you really get a sense of the massive fight back and Letby, Trust, managers' aims all aligning. (Tragically, the excessive compliments, Powell vouchsafing for LL also factored into Brearey delaying. Page 27)

RH column, how Powell described Letby for the RCPH review
' clever, exceptional, meticulous....

( But does EP lie? Read the next page , 40. Apparently, yes.)

https://thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Thirlwall-Inquiry-17-October-2024.pdf

Letby's Grievance. October 2016 . Powell's remarks on LL for that in the bottom box.
Letby is ' second to none' and ' one of my best nurses'

https://thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploads/thirlwall-evidence/INQ0002879_37.pdf

 

[ColourPurple]

Eirian Powell's 'creme de la creme ' Lucy Letby

I did consider whether that phrase was an exaggeration for the police - to assist Letby.
Also wondered whether Letby was mainly valued because of her willingness to do overtime & get managers out of a jam.
Did Powell really believe it or was she exaggerating? I don't know.

Anyway, reading the transcript, you really get a sense of the massive fight back and Letby, Trust, managers' aims all aligning. (Tragically, the excessive compliments, Powell vouchsafing for LL also factored into Brearey delaying. Page 27)

RH column, how Powell described Letby for the RCPH review
' clever, exceptional, meticulous....

( But does EP lie? Read the next page , 40. Apparently, yes.)

View attachment 538465

https://thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Thirlwall-Inquiry-17-October-2024.pdf

Letby's Grievance. October 2016 . Powell's remarks on LL for that in the bottom box.
Letby is ' second to none' and ' one of my best nurses'
View attachment 538468

https://thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploads/thirlwall-evidence/INQ0002879_37.pdf

I suspect her being willing to work at short notice was the biggest plus point .

However, I remember @squish going to see LL on the stand and describing how convincing and confident her way of talking is and that you have to stop and really listen to what she’s saying to realise that she’s speaking rubbish. I don’t want to misquote Squish but the search facility isn’t working for me to find the original post.

My point being, in these interviews Powell doesn’t sound the brightest and I expect it would’ve been very easy for LL to pull the wool over her eyes , as well as playing on her Powell’s inbuilt inferiority complex and “us and them” mentality where the consultants were concerned .

The other thing I picked up on from the feedback notes about LL when she was a student nurse was that one of the “faults” they highlighted was that she wasn’t very good at dealing with unexpected situations.

If LLs way of addressing this was to create situations where she WOULD react well and in a calm controlled manner ( because she’d bloody caused them) then she would look like she had some amazing sixth sense when it came to picking up on small signs that a baby was seriously ill and raising the alarm to the on call doctors. To Powell, this handling of unexpected situations may well have made her look like a really good nurse, “creme de la creme”, who picked up on stuff that other nurses didn’t ( obviously we know now it was because she knew what she was looking for … at)

 

[Sweeper2000]

No pathological behaviour since before the years of 2015/16 as far as we know and has not been reported.

"and were often found to be highly sadistic and narcissistic as described by those who knew them.”

She was not described as any of those things by people who knew her and who seem very good, like her friend Dawn. I would take a well informed opinion over others any day, the police who had probably every detail described her as beige as have many others.

This is jmo but pathological behaviour would have to be there before those years especially for a personality disorder unless it's something that went wrong in those years. She's definitely sick though and of all probably psychopathic. We heard about the coldness that stands out as well as the detachment. Some narcissistic behaviour yes but not seemingly at the level to be considered pathological she was considered quiet by most who knew her. Those guys you see throwing stuff like that is because they get paid for an opinion and it isn't interesting reading for someone to read "she's beige" is interesting to read "she's bent on murdering babies". Forgive the harshness of those words.

my point remains aside from her guilty verdicts there is little to suggest anything being wrong with her on a long term basis. I do find it strange that the coldness is only mentioned once in her past although that may be because others aren't paying much attention or are seeing through rose tinted spectacles. I imo didn't really see anything that seemed like a pathological need for admiration, sympathy or to be seen as better than others.

I may very tentatively suggest she did that as she's trying to prove her skills as a NNU nurse. She always seemed more like "ill just get over it" as she was from day one apparently which isn't munchausens is it?

 

[cottonweaver]

I suspect her being willing to work at short notice was the biggest plus point .

However, I remember @squish going to see LL on the stand and describing how convincing and confident her way of talking is and that you have to stop and really listen to what she’s saying to realise that she’s speaking rubbish. I don’t want to misquote Squish but the search facility isn’t working for me to find the original post.

My point being, in these interviews Powell doesn’t sound the brightest and I expect it would’ve been very easy for LL to pull the wool over her eyes , as well as playing on her Powell’s inbuilt inferiority complex and “us and them” mentality where the consultants were concerned .

The other thing I picked up on from the feedback notes about LL when she was a student nurse was that one of the “faults” they highlighted was that she wasn’t very good at dealing with unexpected situations.

If LLs way of addressing this was to create situations where she WOULD react well and in a calm controlled manner ( because she’d bloody caused them) then she would look like she had some amazing sixth sense when it came to picking up on small signs that a baby was seriously ill and raising the alarm to the on call doctors. To Powell, this handling of unexpected situations may well have made her look like a really good nurse, “creme de la creme”, who picked up on stuff that other nurses didn’t ( obviously we know now it was because she knew what she was looking for … at)

re bold. YES! It makes perfect sense - creating situations and prepping her reactions! Then being all like ' Look at me ! '

Yes, I think that Nicola Lightfoot's final report gave a sense of LL's inherent, lasting traits ( Setting aside the newby skills which were bound to improve) Not sure about Powell yet, she's coming across as quite crafty & cocky but I haven't got to the end of her testimony yet.

Re seeing LL in person at court. Glad you raised that. I'd been trying to recall how people said she came across in court.
eg Can she put on an act of polite, sweet, suck-up, deferential, well brought-up when she needs to? Plus the blue-eyed blonde demure appearance has to help? ( The Babygrow Advert Nurse and the obsession of many middle aged cranks who've since become her warriors online)

Powell noted her eagerness compared to ' attitude' of other young women. Obviously her eagerness takes on a macabre taint now.
Langdale KC asked Eirian Powell why she described LL as 'creme de la creme' considering her history ( placement fail, morphine OD, antibiotics etc) :

page 19 , https://thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Thirlwall-Inquiry-17-October-2024.pdf

Nonetheless, on the manipulation aspect....it's a weapon and a shield

Yes, many witnesses have been genuinely manipulated by Letby, played like chess pieces. I feel for them.
But a few witnesses have used that as a shield after the fact ( Dr Choc ' I was misled and maybe manipulated.' It deflects responsibility. She's a master criminal? The mistress of deception? Or was it more a case of you just wanted a leg over and now you're covering passing insider info to a murderer with ' I was just her pawn'' )
IMO, a lot of these people wanted what she was supplying or they shared aligned objectives, so it suited them at the time

 

[Sweeper2000]

I just wanted to give some informal advice in the run up to Christmas and family gatherings. Don't talk about politics, religion or Lucy letby being guilty. Those three subjects are firestarters. If you feel the need go on x or fb where conflict can be kept at a safe distance and not ruin the turkey.

Thanks and be safe. Your friendly neighbourhood peacekeeper.

 

[Highlandspring]

Not sure if this has already been posted, but very interesting comments in nurse Ashleigh's statement (pp 90/91). She's basically saying because she was new, she assumed so many babies collapsing and dying was the norm, contrary to what she had been led to believe during her studies. However, later on in her career, she realised that this was not the case at all. Melanie Taylor was also new, but the experienced nurses such as Eirann Powell must have known this wasn't normal.



View attachment 538450

Yes this is why, like @katydid I said I wouldn't have admitted I was in 'the huddle' had I been the same level as AH and MT, due to belief the collapse/death rate was the norm. While EP YG and YF, even Lightfoot, who all knew different, banned any talk about it. Griffiths still called it a witchhunt in police questioning I think.
ETA for clarity - I mean that these young nurses were totally misled and some gaslighted, were basically innocent so why would they want to put their heads above the parapet or their equally innocent colleagues'.

 

[cottonweaver]

It's completely shameful and transparent. She's covering her own bottom because if she made changes to the shift based on suspicions letby was harming babies then she is opening herself up to serious repercussions. She is clearly lying.

Ok that example was about Yvonne Griffiths

This next one is Eirian Powell.

In 2020 Powell claimed that she had no recollection of 2015-2016 events. My memory is ‘ problematic at the best of times, it’s 6 years ago. ’ Therefore she refused to comply and co-operate.
In 2021 she gives police a very detailed account. Regained her memory a year later?

starts on line 17 below. (Her subsequent replies are redcated but one of the family's KCs raised the issue because it was important nonetheless.)

Page 51 https://thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Thirlwall-Inquiry-17-October-2024.pdf

-----
Also, on the next page at the link
- the KC puts it to Powell that she favourited LL and he speculates that EP saw herself mirrored in Letby. EP denies
- ' Quirky' is mentioned in ref to LL but we never get to the bottom of what EP was really thinking on that.

 

[Highlandspring]

In reference to Letby's past behaviour/acquaintances, I believe CS2C is an approved source? His interview with Letby's classmate from senior school is interesting I expect some of you have seen it, there are several recognisable traits. Also we know she must've manipulated her parents for years leading up to her conviction and beyond.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Ok that example was about Yvonne Griffiths

This next one is Eirian Powell.

In 2020 Powell claimed that she had no recollection of 2015-2016 events. My memory is ‘ problematic at the best of times, it’s 6 years ago. ’ Therefore she refused to comply and co-operate.
In 2021 she gives police a very detailed account. Regained her memory a year later?

starts on line 17 below. (Her subsequent replies are redcated but one of the family's KCs raised the issue because it was important nonetheless.)
View attachment 538491
Page 51 https://thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Thirlwall-Inquiry-17-October-2024.pdf

-----
Also, on the next page at the link
- the KC puts it to Powell that she favourited LL and he speculates that EP saw herself mirrored in Letby. EP denies
- ' Quirky' is mentioned in ref to LL but we never get to the bottom of what EP was really thinking on that.

That does sound dodge doesn't it? Bit more like waiting to hear what others say so you don't say anything that contradicts others and potentially makes trouble for those being questioned. You should be able to give at least some account of events. Memory prompting normally works though but that's a very cagey response for things quite profound especially contextually.

 

[Tortoise]

For anyone who had never heard of Facere Melius before (there have been a lot of references to them in the Inquiry transcripts) I thought I should try to find out more.

"Three years ago, [my note - this would be in 2020] Sir Duncan, who stepped down in 2019, and Dr Gilby commissioned an external review by the health consultancy Facere Melius into how the hospital trust had handled the allegations.

It has not been published."

Lucy Letby: Hospital bosses were misled, former chair claims

NHS trust board was told there was 'no criminal activity pointing to any one individual', he says.

www.bbc.co.uk

--

The Governance Academy

The Governance Acadamy provides training and thought leadership to health and social care organisations.

www.facere-melius.org.uk

 

[cottonweaver]

For anyone who had never heard of Facere Melius before (there have been a lot of references to them in the Inquiry transcripts) I thought I should try to find out more.

"Three years ago, [my note - this would be in 2020] Sir Duncan, who stepped down in 2019, and Dr Gilby commissioned an external review by the health consultancy Facere Melius into how the hospital trust had handled the allegations.

It has not been published."

Lucy Letby: Hospital bosses were misled, former chair claims

NHS trust board was told there was 'no criminal activity pointing to any one individual', he says.

www.bbc.co.uk

--

The Governance Academy

The Governance Acadamy provides training and thought leadership to health and social care organisations.

www.facere-melius.org.uk

Looking forward to hearing Gilby's evidence. She was so outspoken before CoCH dumped her.

It's not surprising to hear a year later that
' A judge has said he was "troubled" after the Countess of Chester Hospital NHS Trust deleted potentially important evidence ahead of an employment tribunal, including documents relevant to the Thirlwall Inquiry into the crimes of Lucy Letby.'

Lucy Letby hospital NHS trust deleted documents, tribunal told

The ex-chief executive of the hospital trust where Lucy Letby worked is suing it at a tribunal.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Sweeper2000]

That's gonna fuel the "Lucy is innocent" fire isn't it?

 

[cottonweaver]

That's gonna fuel the "Lucy is innocent" fire isn't it?

They'll twist anything for their own ends

but ultimately the journalists will jump off their train because I expect Thirlwall's conclusion will be damning and that it will show that key CoCH execs were attempting a cover-up ( As opposed to the nutty claims that the Trust scapegoated Letby in order to cover up their own failings)

 

[Sweeper2000]

They'll twist anything for their own ends

but ultimately the journalists will jump off their train because I expect Thirlwall's conclusion will be damning and that it will show that key CoCH execs were attempting a cover-up ( As opposed to the nutty claims that the Trust scapegoated Letby in order to cover up their own failings)

Ooooh interesting. More than a hunch that makes you think they were trying for a cover up?

 

[cottonweaver]

Ooooh interesting. More than a hunch that makes you think they were trying for a cover up?

I am ploughing through as much as I can of the Thirlwall site uploads and it's the impression I am getting over & over again.

Anyway, it's not novel, Health Ombudsman was saying it last year

Rob Behrens, the NHS Ombudsman, published a letter written to the Health Secretary asking for a wider review into the culture and leadership in the NHS.
Mr Behrens says this amounted to a "cover-up" at the Countess of Chester Hospital
If we do not make this a defining moment in history of the health service, we will not be doing justice to those that died
The big problem is when people raise patient safety issues we know they are blocked, threatened and bullied from taking it further.

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2023-08-23/nhs-ombudsman-accuses-hospital-of-cover-up-over-serial-killer-lucy-letby

 

[katydid23]

No pathological behaviour since before the years of 2015/16 as far as we know and has not been reported.

"and were often found to be highly sadistic and narcissistic as described by those who knew them.”

She was not described as any of those things by people who knew her and who seem very good, like her friend Dawn. I would take a well informed opinion over others any day, the police who had probably every detail described her as beige as have many others.

I can't say she was pathological in her younger years. I don't know if anyone can.
But I don't think a young woman, with a seemingly normal middle class life, just suddenly begins brutally attacking and killing little babies, if she is beige and unremarkable. So something was 'off' somewhere.

This is jmo but pathological behaviour would have to be there before those years especially for a personality disorder unless it's something that went wrong in those years. She's definitely sick though and of all probably psychopathic. We heard about the coldness that stands out as well as the detachment. Some narcissistic behaviour yes but not seemingly at the level to be considered pathological she was considered quiet by most who knew her. Those guys you see throwing stuff like that is because they get paid for an opinion and it isn't interesting reading for someone to read "she's beige" is interesting to read "she's bent on murdering babies". Forgive the harshness of those words.

my point remains aside from her guilty verdicts there is little to suggest anything being wrong with her on a long term basis. I do find it strange that the coldness is only mentioned once in her past although that may be because others aren't paying much attention or are seeing through rose tinted spectacles. I imo didn't really see anything that seemed like a pathological need for admiration, sympathy or to be seen as better than others.

During the time that this case is focused on, we can see a pathological need for admiration, sympathy and attention.AND I see a thirst for power and control. That's what her brutal actions were all about. IMO

We see the narcissistic manipulation in her texts---the lies, distortion, two faced behaviour, stirring the pot, tattling on others but then being sweet and nice to their face. Trying to manipulate her bosses to get into room one, so she can continue to victimise the babies. That's the narcissism, IMO

The 'admiration' she craved came from how she hid behind the mask with the grieving parents---she assaults their babies, then acts compassionate and bathes and dresses the bodies, puts together memory books, takes photos of the dead babies with little stuffed animals, and offers them to devastated parents so they can all grieve TOGETHER--except Lucy is joyous inside. It leaks out sometimes and parents get upset that she is so animated and upbeat about the process.
[very munchhauseny, imo]

So she gets attention, admiration and POWER because she secretly knows that she is the one that created the entire chaotic tragic situation. She craved that feeling of total control.

She is 'better than others' because she was in control of their fate. A family comes in with twins or triplets and goes home with just one or maybe none. It's all up to Lucy. Their fate is in her hands.

And she sends them Condolences and snaps a picture of them to keep on her phone. As one mother testified, the memory books she had held dear to her heart are now worthless and wicked because the person who killed her child bathed and dressed him and took the last photo. LUCY orchestrated that.

None of the above is unremarkable or beige---it is the most vile, sadistic, extreme evil imaginable, imo.

I may very tentatively suggest she did that as she's trying to prove her skills as a NNU nurse. She always seemed more like "ill just get over it" as she was from day one apparently which isn't munchausens is it?

It's all totally Munchausen, times a thousand. IMO

I don't think she was trying to prove her skills as a nurse in order to become a better nurse. I think she was trying to prove she belonged in nursery one because those are the only babies she could safely victimise. She NEEDED to be in there so she could continue her obsession. She would have 'quiet' tantrums if anyone tried to schedule her in another nursery. We see that in her texts.

She had to have control. When the Dr she had a crush on was walking away to have tea with a female doctor, he barely made it to the cafe' before he was called back for an emergency Resus. She had to take total control and sending air into a baby's veins was the perfect way to do so. That is totally Munchausen. IMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

I can't say she was pathological in her younger years. I don't know if anyone can.
But I don't think a young woman, with a seemingly normal middle class life, just suddenly begins brutally attacking and killing little babies, if she is beige and unremarkable. So something was 'off' somewhere.

During the time that this case is focused on, we can see a pathological need for admiration, sympathy and attention.AND I see a thirst for power and control. That's what her brutal actions were all about. IMO

We see the narcissistic manipulation in her texts---the lies, distortion, two faced behaviour, stirring the pot, tattling on others but then being sweet and nice to their face. Trying to manipulate her bosses to get into room one, so she can continue to victimise the babies. That's the narcissism, IMO

The 'admiration' she craved came from how she hid behind the mask with the grieving parents---she assaults their babies, then acts compassionate and bathes and dresses the bodies, puts together memory books, takes photos of the dead babies with little stuffed animals, and offers them to devastated parents so they can all grieve TOGETHER--except Lucy is joyous inside. It leaks out sometimes and parents get upset that she is so animated and upbeat about the process.
[very munchhauseny, imo]

So she gets attention, admiration and POWER because she secretly knows that she is the one that created the entire chaotic tragic situation. She craved that feeling of total control.

She is 'better than others' because she was in control of their fate. A family comes in with twins or triplets and goes home with just one or maybe none. It's all up to Lucy. Their fate is in her hands.

And she sends them Condolences and snaps a picture of them to keep on her phone. As one mother testified, the memory books she had held dear to her heart are now worthless and wicked because the person who killed her child bathed and dressed him and took the last photo. LUCY orchestrated that.

None of the above is unremarkable or beige---it is the most vile, sadistic, extreme evil imaginable, imo.

It's all totally Munchausen, times a thousand. IMO

I don't think she was trying to prove her skills as a nurse in order to become a better nurse. I think she was trying to prove she belonged in nursery one because those are the only babies she could safely victimise. She NEEDED to be in there so she could continue her obsession. She would have 'quiet' tantrums if anyone tried to schedule her in another nursery. We see that in her texts.

She had to have control. When the Dr she had a crush on was walking away to have tea with a female doctor, he barely made it to the cafe' before he was called back for an emergency Resus. She had to take total control and sending air into a baby's veins was the perfect way to do so. That is totally Munchausen. IMO

I totally get it I really do. It's just my understanding of the word "pathological", when it comes to behaviour it usually means really really noticeable to the point where it affects relationships. Extremely difficult to hide. Narcissistic rage is a prime example as these people absolutely go properly raging for little to no reason. Extreme over reactions to the slightest thing so you would notice it especially as its not rare behaviour for them. We know what people said about her and the description kind if fits with a "background noise personality". I think psychopathy fits more than anything else. I would also think that the people who did know her would say her behaviour was noticeably off which they haven't. we got detachment and coldness at worst which only one person has said. As I said I get it but the examples we have heard never cross the lines into extremes or "pathological" imo but that's not focusing purely on the g verdicts. You would absolutely have to take her whole life into account to be able to make an informed decision about who she is and whatever is up with her imo.

From her friends description on crime scene 2 courtrooms youtube Channel we do see some irregularities, unable to take constructive criticism for example especially in relation to an unusual understanding of appropriate behaviour, teachers pet but ignoring the sudden onset homicidal actions is there anything that could be considered extreme? It's just so weird to me K. Doesn't make sense.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I've just thought of a question I haven't seen asked in relation to this case. When the first trial was on the judge said to the jury that all of the cases can be linked to each other and looked at collectively. So if the jury finds a g verdict on one they may view that verdict in relation to the other charges. I'm wondering if that way of looking at the events may be applicable either within the law or from a professional medical POV. So if a doctor looks at the separate med files can they diagnose with each diagnosis potentially affecting the next ? I think I remember Dr Evans saying he didn't but could it still be done today? Maybe someone with experience in the relevant field can advise? It would make sense to me that yes that should be possible and I think it may go further when it comes to thus continued doubt about the safety of her convictions. Kind of saying from a pro pov "these cases over the two year period are so medically unusual that human action knowingly or not must or is most likely a factor". It would put the cases into a more understandable frame.

It's also relevant to this article and what Dr Hall is saying. Hes kind if picking at individual cases.

“Phrases such as the baby was really, really well were given by the prosecution expert witnesses on several occasions for several of the babies,” Dr Hall told us.

“And it was my view and is my view that they weren't really, really well, they had signs of significant illness.

Lucy Letby: We spent years covering the case – here’s why experts are still arguing about it

For more than a year, we’ve been examining the scientific evidence and speaking to the experts at the centre of the case.

www.bbc.co.uk

Really good article BTW interesting as well.