UK - Lucy Letby - Post-Conviction Statutory Inquiry

[Baby baby Jane]

I've just thought of a question I haven't seen asked in relation to this case. When the first trial was on the judge said to the jury that all of the cases can be linked to each other and looked at collectively. So if the jury finds a g verdict on one they may view that verdict in relation to the other charges. I'm wondering if that way of looking at the events may be applicable either within the law or from a professional medical POV. So if a doctor looks at the separate med files can they diagnose with each diagnosis potentially affecting the next ? I think I remember Dr Evans saying he didn't but could it still be done today? Maybe someone with experience in the relevant field can advise? It would make sense to me that yes that should be possible and I think it may go further when it comes to thus continued doubt about the safety of her convictions. Kind of saying from a pro pov "these cases over the two year period are so medically unusual that human action knowingly or not must or is most likely a factor". It would put the cases into a more understandable frame.

It's also relevant to this article and what Dr Hall is saying. Hes kind if picking at individual cases.

“Phrases such as the baby was really, really well were given by the prosecution expert witnesses on several occasions for several of the babies,” Dr Hall told us.

“And it was my view and is my view that they weren't really, really well, they had signs of significant illness.

Lucy Letby: We spent years covering the case – here’s why experts are still arguing about it

For more than a year, we’ve been examining the scientific evidence and speaking to the experts at the centre of the case.

www.bbc.co.uk

Really good article BTW interesting as well.

Agree, read that and was considering … it’s all relative.
To a person outside the setting, the baby is really unwell. But to medical staff, on the ward, stable =doing really really well.

I’ve had a baby in special care unit. Special Care “doing really really well” would be another persons “very very unwell”. Staff “keep it positive” and not lying to say doing really really well, meaning stable, or improving
It’s all relative to the situation & context.

And journalists need to fill pages … with “controversy.“. Letby rinse & repeat and will never come clean.

 

[Tortoise]

Week 7 – Part B evidence​

Monday 21 October	Anne Murphy – Lead Nurse of Children’s Services, Karen Rees – Head of Nursing (Urgent Care)
Tuesday 22 October	Debbie Peacock – Risk & Patient Safety Lead, Janet McMahon – Project Lead Risk & Safety Team, Anne-Marie Lawrence – Clinical Governance Lead and Risk Midwife
Non-sitting period	The Inquiry will break from sittings from 23 October and resume sitting on Monday 4 November.

Witness Timetable | The Thirlwall Inquiry

 

[Tortoise]

They still haven't put up the transcripts for last Monday.

Those witnesses were anonymous Nurses T, W and ZC.

 

[Jazmania]

Just reading the BBC article about their upcoming panarama investigation. Lucy Letby: We spent years covering the case – here’s why experts are still arguing about it

Thank goodness for actual real journalists who have made a considerable effort to report on this accurately. Rather than cherry picking experts to give opinions that people will find the most sensational.

From the article:

"Critics argue there are circumstances in which the test can mistake another substance for insulin. It is called interference and it could result in a false positive. The critics say the only way to be sure that the substance being measured is indeed insulin is to use a more precise method of analysis - such as mass spectrometry.

We spent months examining this argument. Our conclusion, having spoken to leading experts on all sides of this debate, is that, while the immunoassay method is not perfect, it is usually accurate and the circumstances in which interference might occur are extremely unlikely in the context of the babies in the Letby case.

It is even more unlikely that two lab tests conducted within months of each other would both be wrong."

 

[cottonweaver]

So, Karen Rees today. It should be interesting.

Bumping up that old Rees interview:
Karen Rees' ITV interview from Sept 2023. ' for nearly 2 years, weekly LL was so upset... would she be so good at acting..'

5 minute interview video at this link

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2023-08-22/ex-nursing-boss-wasnt-given-enough-information-to-remove-lucy-letby

also from same 2023 link

It had also been claimed during Letby's trial that Dr Brearey had asked Ms Rees if she would be happy to take responsibility if "something happened to any of the babies tomorrow".

The retired nursing chief is alleged to have said "yes".

But Ms Rees said in her statement that the claim is "completely untrue" and an "outrageous allegation to make".

She added that she is "currently taking legal advice about the untrue allegations".

(Rees stayed friends with LL for years after she was removed from NNU. LL attended Karen's 2018 retirement party. After the proverbial hit the fan and Rees received unflattering publicity at the end of the first trial in 2023, Rees switched and said LL must be guilty and that she must've been duped by LL. Rees admitted she didn't attend the trial)

 

[bbsaz]

Hang on, the month after the guilty verdicts did she suggest she was innocent? By saying: would she be so good at lying for two years?

If so, WOW

 

[bbsaz]

Also, apologies if this has already been discussed as I've only recently rejoined this thread. But Eirian Powell said that her and the two Yvonne's discussed Allit/Shipman etc... and whether they could have similar going on ALL THE TIME. All whilst she is keeping a tally of the deaths and adding LL name every single time... It beggars belief

 

[cottonweaver]

Hang on, the month after the guilty verdicts did she suggest she was innocent? By saying: would she be so good at lying for two years?

If so, WOW

there were a few articles immediately after the verdict.
Brearey and Jayram gave a few interviews and Rees' name was mentioned several times, so, Rees then popped up giving ' her side'

here's another one, Sunday Times link GUILTY - UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 7 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 6 hung re attempted #33

' I have no doubt at all that she was guilty of these despicable crimes, having seen the reports of the evidence,” she said. “I did not attend the trial so I had an incomplete picture until the verdicts were announced, and more detail provided.”

“She was very convincing. I now know that this was a calculated and successful attempt to make me believe her story, and I was deceived, as were so many others.”

had an incomplete pic until verdict day... but wasn't interested enough to attend or follow evidence in media?
Suddenly says she's been duped. Not her fault. Rather like Dr Choc.

and here's what Brearey said in one of those 2023 post verdict interviews:

C

GUILTY Post in thread 'UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 7 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 6 hung re attempted #33'

Aug 25, 2023

Karen Rees/Moore

'Karen Moore, head of nursing for urgent care​

Moore, whose surname was Rees at the time, was one of Letby’s line managers and allegedly refused to remove her from duty after two babies died within 24 hours.
She has been accused by Brearey of keeping the nurse in post, potentially allowing another baby, Baby Q, to be attacked the following day.
She was given an outstanding achievement award from the trust in October 2015, after Letby had murdered three babies and attempted to kill two more. In 2017 she was named “nurse of the year” by the trust...

• cottonweaver

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[Parker Knoll]

The panorama programme is already up on iPlayer - interesting watch.
Enquiry sitting just two days this week and her appeal on Baby K Thursday.
Almost feels like one pence in every pound of my tax is being spent on Letby right now.

 

[cottonweaver]

Caroline and Liz review Eirian Powell and the ' anonymous' nurses' evidence to the Inquiry.

 

[Marantz4250b]

In reference to Letby's past behaviour/acquaintances, I believe CS2C is an approved source? His interview with Letby's classmate from senior school is interesting I expect some of you have seen it, there are several recognisable traits. Also we know she must've manipulated her parents for years leading up to her conviction and beyond.

Can't believe I'd not seen that until I read that post. Excellent video.

Again, what comes over about her, and is the case with this video, is that she seems totally normal in the way 99% of the population are normal. Leaving aside the whole baby murdering thing there really isn't anything different, strange or unusual about her. Certainly nothing in her past that would tend to suggest that she was inclined towards the crimes she's been convicted of.

The police (I think it was) referred to her as "beige". I agree with that in the sense that she is unremarkable when compared to other people but I think it's not quite the correct word to use because I think it will be equated with "boring" or not very sociable and a bit of a loner. She certainly wasn't any of those things as she was clearly very sociable and outgoing. If she wasn't at work she was out with friends, eating, drinking and dancing.

 

[cottonweaver]

Podcast episode is 2 weeks old but wasn't aware of this


The Thirlwall Inquiry is looking into whether somebody senior in the NNU decided to take Letby off the care of Baby I after her frequent collapses but allowed LL to continue at NNU.
If proved true, this would undercut some of the senior staff's prior claims. ( Liz Hull doesn't mention it but I guess this relates to the late upload of that transcript)

Also this episode mentions another ongoing investigation re a CoCH baby
Liz Hull says one of the Drs at Thirlwall couldn't disclose details on another incident affecting a baby before baby boy twin 'A' in 2015. This Dr has given a statement to Chesh Po so it cannot be disclosed during the Thirlwall Inquiry.

 

[Tortoise]

The Thirlwall Inquiry is looking into whether somebody senior in the NNU decided to take Letby off the care of Baby I after her frequent collapses but allowed LL to continue at NNU.
If proved true, this would undercut some of the senior staff's prior claims. ( Liz Hull doesn't mention it but I guess this relates to the late upload of that transcript)

RSBM

This was in Yvonne Griffiths' (deputy ward manager - in charge of nurse allocations) evidence last week - she actually changed her evidence from that which she had previously given.

Before her evidence was that Dr Brearey had expressed concerns to her about LL. "I did not change allocation because I had doubts in Letby's practice but more to stop fingerpointing."

Now it is that she had a more experienced ITU nurse than LL to allocate to baby I.

Extensive questioning starts on page 118 (30/90) and ends on page 132 (33/90)

with:

Q. So after we have undertaken that process, and I accept it's implicit in your last answer, but of the two accounts that you have given, sitting there now, which do you think is correct?
A. The revised account.


16/10/2024 – Transcript of Week 6 Day 3 | The Thirlwall Inquiry

 

[cottonweaver]

Today's hearing, Lead Nurse of Children’s Services Ann Murphy

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2024-10-21/lucy-letbys-former-boss-apologises-to-families-for-not-acting-sooner

Did Murphy not understand the question well enough to answer it or doesn't she understand safeguarding?

Asked by inquiry counsel Nicholas de la Poer if, when it comes to keeping babies safe, she needed proof before she acts, she replied: "When a person is potentially accused of some wrongdoing, in that case yes I do think we should have had proof.”

Plus, If you need proof before taking a safeguarding action - such as supervision or suspending or moving a staff member pending investigation - why move Letby into Patient Records in June 2016 and call it a ' secondment' ? Murphy still didn't have her ' proof ' in June 2016 either.

 

[cottonweaver]

RSBM

This was in Yvonne Griffiths' (deputy ward manager - in charge of nurse allocations) evidence last week - she actually changed her evidence from that which she had previously given.

Before her evidence was that Dr Brearey had expressed concerns to her about LL. "I did not change allocation because I had doubts in Letby's practice but more to stop fingerpointing."

Now it is that she had a more experienced ITU nurse than LL to allocate to baby I.

Extensive questioning starts on page 118 (30/90) and ends on page 132 (33/90)

with:

Q. So after we have undertaken that process, and I accept it's implicit in your last answer, but of the two accounts that you have given, sitting there now, which do you think is correct?
A. The revised account.


16/10/2024 – Transcript of Week 6 Day 3 | The Thirlwall Inquiry

wow!

So, is Griffiths doing all of this to backtrack now, to try and pretend she had no awareness of LL posing a risk pre June 2016?

BTW, I was just looking at old texts around Baby I and saw this ' No. Was just asked to reallocate.....'
So the nurse ( name restricted) who texts Letby was asked to reallocate by Griffiths?

Name restricted but it's Nurse T texting Letby


14th October 2015
In WhatsApp messages read to the court, Letby asked a colleague on the afternoon of October 14 if Child I was staying on the unit.

She added: “I’d like to keep her please.”

Her colleague, who cannot be identified for legal reasons, replied: “Yes. Staying for now. OK re keeping.”

An hour later the colleague messaged: “I’ve had to reallocate. Sorry.”

Letby said: “Has something happened?”

The colleague replied: “No. Was just asked to reallocate so no one has her for more than 1 night at a time. Or 1 shift. Not just night.” Letby responded: “Yeah that’s understandable.”

 

[Tortoise]

wow!


BTW, I was just looking at old texts around Baby I and saw this ' No. Was just asked to reallocate.....'
So the nurse ( name restricted) who texts Letby was asked to reallocate by Griffiths?


14th October 2015
In WhatsApp messages read to the court, Letby asked a colleague on the afternoon of October 14 if Child I was staying on the unit.

She added: “I’d like to keep her please.”

Her colleague, who cannot be identified for legal reasons, replied: “Yes. Staying for now. OK re keeping.”

An hour later the colleague messaged: “I’ve had to reallocate. Sorry.”

Letby said: “Has something happened?”

The colleague replied: “No. Was just asked to reallocate so no one has her for more than 1 night at a time. Or 1 shift. Not just night.” Letby responded: “Yeah that’s understandable.”

Yes, it'll be one of the anonymous nurse shift-leaders.

Is that why they aren't releasing it??

 

[Sweeper2000]

Today's hearing, Lead Nurse of Children’s Services Ann Murphy

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2024-10-21/lucy-letbys-former-boss-apologises-to-families-for-not-acting-sooner

Did Murphy not understand the question well enough to answer it or doesn't she understand safeguarding?


Plus, If you need proof before taking a safeguarding action - such as supervision or suspending or moving a staff member pending investigation - why move Letby into Patient Records in June 2016 and call it a ' secondment' ? Murphy still didn't have her ' proof ' in June 2016 either.

Is it a fair excuse to say "we didn't have enough to suspend her formally" even with the bodies piling up? It's not is it. Doesn't have to be deliberate does it, that suggests to me that they did indeed have a suspicion that someone was killing and were not willing to jump into "that" territory so soon, perhaps expend all other options and then go ahead with the deliberate harm option. That's really no good at all.

 

[cottonweaver]

Karen Rees update
lots more at the link

Nursing boss tells Letby inquiry she ‘pleaded’ with hospital to contact police

Karen Rees tells Thirlwall inquiry she had ‘never been so relieved’ when police were eventually called

www.theguardian.com

A nursing boss has described how she “pleaded” with a hospital executive to contact police over allegations Lucy Letby was harming babies.

Karen Rees, the head of nursing in urgent care at the Countess of Chester hospital, said she wanted a criminal investigation because other reviews were “getting nowhere” and “relationships were breaking down all over the place”.


Rees said she had “never been so relieved” as when police were eventually called in May 2017 – more than a year after executives were first alerted to concerns about Letby – but admitted she and other managers were “all at fault” for not contacting them sooner.

She accepted that the concern of senior doctors should have been enough to withdraw the nurse from frontline duties, but that she felt “bullied and intimidated into making a decision”. She added: “I thought it was personal and perhaps I was slighted by that.”

Hmmmm.....

anyway, here's on old comment from Dr Jayaram in response to her claims a year ago in the Times link - around the same time as the ITV interview, which I linked to on previous WS page

https://twitter.com/x/status/1695152767881372143

Times link from Aug 2023
'When approached before the verdict was delivered but after all the evidence in the trial had been heard, Rees’s sister-in-law, who lives next door to her, said that the former nursing director believed that Letby was innocent.'

 

[Tortoise]

Karen Rees update
lots more at the link

Nursing boss tells Letby inquiry she ‘pleaded’ with hospital to contact police

Karen Rees tells Thirlwall inquiry she had ‘never been so relieved’ when police were eventually called

www.theguardian.com

Hmmmm.....

anyway, here's on old comment from Dr Jayaram in response to her claims a year ago in the Times link - around the same time as the ITV interview, which I linked to on previous WS page

https://twitter.com/x/status/1695152767881372143

Times link from Aug 2023
'When approached before the verdict was delivered but after all the evidence in the trial had been heard, Rees’s sister-in-law, who lives next door to her, said that the former nursing director believed that Letby was innocent.'

Well that's an about-face. How can she go from denying the "allegation" that Dr Brearey demanded she take LL off the unit after the death of baby P, and seeking legal advice over it, to admitting it was true today?

Still, I am glad that she is being truthful now, unlike others who are still more concerned about covering their own backsides.

 

[cottonweaver]

Former head of HR Sue Hodkinson was really, really worried about......


Letby's mother, Susan Letby!

This is during the period of time that bereaved mums and dads were getting fobbed off, lied to or simply ignored.

2017 HR records have been uploaded to Thirlwall site

https://thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploads/thirlwall-evidence/INQ0003529_03-05_09.pdf

Head of HR also taking and returning calls from father John Letby to ' provide overviews' and ' update ' him.
Rees, de Beger, Kelly also involved in some of the 2017 meetings at the link . They are full of praise for LL and discuss Karen reading out LL's letter on LL's behalf ( The ' I have been exonerated letter)