UK - Lucy Letby - Post-Conviction Statutory Inquiry

[Tortoise]

Just catching up. Obviously, her first arrest was 3 July, 2018, not 2017.

Yes. I think I spotted a few more date (year) errors in Judith's reporting yesterday.

 

[Tortoise]

Yesterdays transcript - Tony Chambers and then Ian Harvey

28/11/2024 – Transcript of Week 11 Day 4 | The Thirlwall Inquiry

Transcript of Part B Evidence: - Tony Chambers, Chief Executive Officer (continued) - Ian Harvey, Medical Director

thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk

 

[marynnu]

I think the implications that multiples tend to have a lower birth weight and more complex needs because they are multiple. He was basically implying they should have been handled at a higher level unit.

It's total rubbish. Multiples have certain risks, but they wither have problems or they don't, like any baby.

 

[katydid23]

Of course she did.

Do what you love, you never work a day in your life.

She loved manipulating and controlling her coworkers and torturing and killing babies and tormenting their families.

MOO

It blows my mind that she stayed at that same hospital for so long. If she had just moved location after babies E or F, gave an excuse for moving to a new town, she could have continued torturing and controlling others in a new clinic. She could have gotten away with it for many years if she just kept moving around, most likely.

 

[Kemug]

It blows my mind that she stayed at that same hospital for so long. If she had just moved location after babies E or F, gave an excuse for moving to a new town, she could have continued torturing and controlling others in a new clinic. She could have gotten away with it for many years if she just kept moving around, most likely.

Yes, probably. It is rather strange that she wanted to stay there. Was it the charms of Doc Choc that kept her there? Was it just stubbornness that she wouldn't go quietly, but wanted to fight it out to the end? Was it a case of "nobody tells me what to do!"? Did she not want to leave her new home with the "lovely view"? No-one would have thought it at all odd for a young woman to move around a bit. Blows my mind too.

 

[katydid23]

Consultant worried that doctors' relationship with management was 'breaking down'​

15:11​

Judith Moritz
Special correspondent, reporting from the inquiry

The inquiry is now shown an email that consultant Dr Ravi Jayaram sent to Tony Chambers on 20 September 2016.

In it, Jayaram says: "I have a group of colleagues who do not feel that they are being listened to, or valued by the trust and consequently fear that our relationship with senior management is breaking down."

Inquiry counsel Nicholas de la Poer KC tries to move on to a new line of inquiry, but Chambers asks to speak about the email.

"One of the things that you find as a chief executive unfortunately is that you find yourself apologising for all sorts of things that other people had done, that you knew nothing about," he says.

He adds that the context of the email was to do with the consultants being angry over an issue with the hospital’s fundraising appeal for a new neonatal unit.

Ex-medical boss of Lucy Letby hospital says opportunities missed to spot harm three times

The former medical director of Lucy Letby's hospital, Ian Harvey, is appearing before the Thirlwall Inquiry, giving evidence about how the hospital handled the case.

www.bbc.co.uk

In it, Jayaram says: "I have a group of colleagues who do not feel that they are being listened to, or valued by the trust and consequently fear that our relationship with senior management is breaking down."
[...]
He [Chambers] adds that the context of the email was to do with the consultants being angry over an issue with the hospital’s fundraising appeal for a new neonatal unit.


OK, just using our common sense---what else was going on in Sept of 2016, besides a fundraising appeal for a new neonatal unit? Could there be something more upsetting to the Consultants than the fundraising issue?


See Below, from timeline:
"... was an invited review by the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health - the inspection visit for which took place in Sept 2016.

• Also in Sept 2016, Letby raised a grievance complaint at having been taken off duty and moved to a clerical role. This was upheld in her favour in December 2016

I think it is much more likely that the doctors were angry about Nurse Letby logging her 'grievance complaint' about being taken off the floor, with the looming possibility she would return to the nursery.

 

[katydid23]

He’s back tomorrow and it won’t be pleasant for this utter COWARD.
Simply staggering again, these half *advertiser censored***d apologies are worthless from management as they are still unwilling to take responsibility not withstanding the fat pay cheque they get and got to oversea what was going on literally under their noses and deflect deflect deflect is a disgrace.
I imagine letby smirking in her miserable cell tonight while she watches the news.
My blood is boiling.

And he didn't want to step down because 'I still had 6 months left on my contract and I hoped to rebuild and reset...'

What a selfish coward!

 

[katydid23]

Every single administrator in this thought they were working PR for a corporation or political campaign, rather than safeguarding the most vulnerable human beings on the planet.

They're incapable of answering a straight question with a straight answer or admitting that they had all the information in front of them to make an informed decision that could have protected children from harm. Instead, they're all slipperier than a bag of eels, trying to wriggle out of every single question put to them. To take their word for it, you'd have to believe they never heard nuffin and had about as much power as the guy who mopped the floors to intervene.

MOO

And with all these babies collapsing and so many dying unexpectedly, even after the first 3 or 4 deaths at the start, none of the managers could insist that, for her own good, Nurse Lucy should be moved to the stable nursery and just change diapers and do feedings for awhile? Lucy should not have been able to reject those initial recommendations.

Especially by the time of the triplets's assaults---HOW could the managers question the request to have her temporarily taken off the floor? It blows my mind how stubborn and petty they were acting.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Yes, probably. It is rather strange that she wanted to stay there. Was it the charms of Doc Choc that kept her there? Was it just stubbornness that she wouldn't go quietly, but wanted to fight it out to the end? Was it a case of "nobody tells me what to do!"? Did she not want to leave her new home with the "lovely view"? No-one would have thought it at all odd for a young woman to move around a bit. Blows my mind too.

From what knowledge I have of this case Doc Choc does seem to be one of the underlying reasons for Letby’s homicidal behaviour. Seems extraordinary that a professional can be manipulated and taken in so easily.

 

[ColourPurple]

It blows my mind that she stayed at that same hospital for so long. If she had just moved location after babies E or F, gave an excuse for moving to a new town, she could have continued torturing and controlling others in a new clinic. She could have gotten away with it for many years if she just kept moving around, most likely.

She was getting away with it all till June/July 2016 though so had no need to move . Then it looks like her plan throughout the grievance process was to get the hospital to clear her name, wipe all record of her redeployment and then eventually move on to join Doc Choc at Alder Hey with a clean record along with funding to do her masters degree! She’d already started the ball rolling with her “observational visits” there with him while she was redeployed.

And she would’ve gotten away with it all too if it wasn’t for those meddling consultants! Scary thought!

 

[ColourPurple]

From what knowledge I have of this case Doc Choc does seem to be one of the underlying reasons for Letby’s homicidal behaviour. Seems extraordinary that a professional can be manipulated and taken in so easily.

Certainly once he joined the hospital a lot of the attacks appeared to be a way for her to spend time with him, and on one occasion she specifically asked that they send him instead when another consultant responded to her emergency call when he was on shift. However, her attacks started before he even joined. Going by the latest info coming from the inquiry, possibly YEARS before.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I'm so SICK of all the self-serving attitudes. The non-admission of personal failings. The blaming on others.

If you took on a leading role, and the fat pay cheque, and you didn't do what you should have been doing, stand up and say it. COWARDS the lot of them.

I can't think of an orginisation this bunch of FAILURES were less suited to.

And if you are going to apologise, don't put in any caveats. No buts, or excuses. How offensive are these people.

As if the families didn't already have a murderer to cope with.

Tony Chambers opening statement was played on the radio the other day. It was the usual rubbish to the effect of ...heart goes out to the families, we're sorry for what happened and the decisions I took... and then ended it with the words ...in good faith.. or similar!

It's just a massive exercise in minimising anything they've done to contribute or inflame this whole sorry mess. A total lack of responsibility. Some of these people, imo, come over as utter narcissists, quite honestly. Arrogant and self serving.

As I said the other day - the only thing that will go any way to preventing things like this is real and severe criminal penalties for negligent or reckless behavior in management positions in public service. Along with that, you should need to be licensed to be employed in a management position in public employment.

 

[Marantz4250b]

It's amazing how frightened this man, head of a hospital with presumably an army of lawyers, is of one working class man from Hereford.

It's utterly unbelievable, quite honestly! This, unfortunately, is how the world works these days, especially in public employment. Everyone is so utterly conditioned and indoctrinated into the school of thought that above everything else - even public safety, clearly - that no one should ever feel "offended" by anything you do or say. Causing offence is the number one no-no in virtually everything these days and it's quite ridiculous, imv.

I think it all stems from this misguided idea that "everyone's opinion is just as valid as everyone else's so we're discriminating if we don't consider it", which is just so much horse ****, quite honestly.

No one has a right not to be offended. If a family member of one of my staff tried to demand a meeting or to insist that they attended an employment meeting I'd have them removed and they'd be told in very firm language (firmer than is allowed on here) to leave forthwith and not come back unless invited to!

 

[Marantz4250b]

Certainly once he joined the hospital a lot of the attacks appeared to be a way for her to spend time with him, and on one occasion she specifically asked that they send him instead when another consultant responded to her emergency call when he was on shift. However, her attacks started before he even joined. Going by the latest info coming from the inquiry, possibly YEARS before.

People were initially questioning what made her suddenly start killing and assaulting babies out of the blue in 2015. Given what is now coming out, it seems evident that she was doing it a lot earlier. Personally, I think she was at it from shortly after she qualified.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Chambers continues: "I didn’t feel that I was raising my voice, I certainly wasn’t angry. I felt that I behaved professionally, as they did, as everybody in the meeting did, and that was my recollection of that meeting."

Ex-medical boss of Lucy Letby hospital says opportunities missed to spot harm three times

The former medical director of Lucy Letby's hospital, Ian Harvey, is appearing before the Thirlwall Inquiry, giving evidence about how the hospital handled the case.

www.bbc.co.uk

More covering up and attempting to minimise what you've done. The bolded words are his opinion (or what he claims is his opinion), not a factual statement.

He can't say that he didn't raise his voice or that he did act professionally because if in actual fact he didn't then he'd be telling lies!

Literally no one in any leadership position seems to be capable of taking any responsibility for what they have done to contribute to any of this. It's an utter disgrace.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I wonder if there is any potential criminal liability for board members?

I think that the police were looking into potential corporate manslaughter offences?

 

[iamshadow21]

It's utterly unbelievable, quite honestly! This, unfortunately, is how the world works these days, especially in public employment. Everyone is so utterly conditioned and indoctrinated into the school of thought that above everything else - even public safety, clearly - that no one should ever feel "offended" by anything you do or say. Causing offence is the number one no-no in virtually everything these days and it's quite ridiculous, imv.

I think it all stems from this misguided idea that "everyone's opinion is just as valid as everyone else's so we're discriminating if we don't consider it", which is just so much horse ****, quite honestly.

No one has a right not to be offended. If a family member of one of my staff tried to demand a meeting or to insist that they attended an employment meeting I'd have them removed and they'd be told in very firm language (firmer than is allowed on here) to leave forthwith and not come back unless invited to!

I think you took what I said at face value. I was being sarcastic, I thought he was lying through his teeth.

I don't doubt that Letby's father was being aggressive, but I 100% think TC was sitting opposite him agreeing that the whole situation was shameful and that he'd spank the offending doctors and have his precious poppet back on the ward in no time.

We know he went out for coffee more than once with Letby, it wasn't like he didn't know her from Adam or only saw her in grievance hearings. They were chummy. He minimised that to the extreme.

MOO

 

[Marantz4250b]

Inquiry chair takes over with questions for Chambers​

11:27​

Judith Moritz
Special correspondent, reporting from the inquiry

Kate Blackwell KC has finished her questions for Tony Chambers.

The inquiry chair, Lady Justice Thirlwall says she has a few questions for Chambers.

She asks him about his career and what his degree was in.

He answers that his degree was in English, Media and Communications, and he worked as a registered nurse for three years in adult critical care.

Ex-medical boss of Lucy Letby hospital says opportunities missed to spot harm three times

The former medical director of Lucy Letby's hospital, Ian Harvey, is appearing before the Thirlwall Inquiry, giving evidence about how the hospital handled the case.

www.bbc.co.uk

oh, and there was me thinking he worked as a ringmaster.

In what possible way does any of that qualify him to earn £160K a year running an entire hospital? He's a PR guy who did a few years nursing - what does he know about managing the place? It's roughly equivalent to someone who worked on the line assembling cars at Nissan for a few years being put in charge of the whole massive factory at Sunderland.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Yes, probably. It is rather strange that she wanted to stay there. Was it the charms of Doc Choc that kept her there? Was it just stubbornness that she wouldn't go quietly, but wanted to fight it out to the end? Was it a case of "nobody tells me what to do!"? Did she not want to leave her new home with the "lovely view"? No-one would have thought it at all odd for a young woman to move around a bit. Blows my mind too.

Remember also that a lot of the purpose she had in life was to keep mummy and daddy happy. They'd obviously helped her buy the house (I'm sure that that was confirmed in evidence the other week) and I doubt they'd be pleased if she'd sold it to move elsewhere.

Yes, I also think it was her arrogance and mindset that no one tells her what to do.

But also, I doubt she felt the need to move as she was getting away with doing what she was doing. I think that when she became aware that she was being looked into it was already too late for her. There have been cases where murdery medical staff have moved from place to place but not in the UK, I don't think. In those cases it seems to have been the case that the establishment they worked for investigated them and "let them go" in order to see the back of them and get rid of them and make them someone else's problem.

 

[Tortoise]

More covering up and attempting to minimise what you've done. The bolded words are his opinion (or what he claims is his opinion), not a factual statement.

He can't say that he didn't raise his voice or that he did act professionally because if in actual fact he didn't then he'd be telling lies!

Literally no one in any leadership position seems to be capable of taking any responsibility for what they have done to contribute to any of this. It's an utter disgrace.

What he, and the rest of them, don't seem to realise is that they are showing Lady Thirlwall exactly how obstinate they are. They don't hear what they don't want to hear, and they do/say what they have their minds set to doing/saying, even in an Inquiry of this magnitude and on a public stage. If they are like that here, I guarantee they were a hundred times worse in their own offices.

Probably the most common feature of their evidence, apart from the non-recollections and rehearsed mantras of 'no one told us', has been the necessity of all counsel to repeatedly say 'please listen to the question'. Over and over and over.