UK UK - Manchester, 'Angel of the Meadow' WhtFem Skeletal, 16-30, buried, Jan'10

[ZaZara]

OT Neustadt Jane Doe had blue eyes, Riek Degeling has brown eyes.

About Angel of the meadow:

Angel of the Meadow

In 2010, skeletal remains of a murdered (and likely assaulted) woman were found in Manchester, UK. Will the UK permit advanced DNA testing to identify her?

dnasolves.com

There is no ending and the “Angel of the Meadow” remains unidentified, not because of scientific limitation but because the UK is still working to develop a position on genealogical search for law enforcement investigations . Much like in the United States, there are so many unidentified victims in the UK and much like in the United States, these unidentified persons will often not be identified using traditional forensic testing alone. The UK allows “familial search”, but these comparisons are based on STRs. They utilize very few markers and can generally only detect an exact match, parent-child relationship, or sibling relationship. Investigators compared 400 missing persons without a match and this is a time-consuming and costly venture. I can only hope that in the future, there will be a chance to deploy modern DNA testing to help identify this woman and connect her back to family.

@Al Ka and others: is there any progress/news about the status quo on genealogical searches in the UK?

BBM in red

I have been looking for that list of 400 rule outs but found nothing. AFAIK it hasn't been made public. It is probably safe to say that if we know about a missing woman's case, LE does too and they have checked and no match was made.

After 400 mis-matches, it is about time to get serious about Genetic Genealogy!

The other thing that irks me about this case is that it was likely very local. A woman works in a bar or a kitchen, she is attacked after hours by for instance the owner of the bar, or when she was leaving. Surely there must have been people who missed her in one way or another. She must have lived somewhere and from one day to another she is gone without anyone noticing?

 

[dotr]

• Holly Christodoulou 24 Mar 2024

How dress & pub sign hold key to solving grim 'Angel of the Meadow' murder

A TATTY pinafore dress and discarded shoe belonging to a woman buried in a Victorian slum remain at the centre of a mysterious cold case. In the 1970s or 80s, a young woman was sexually assaulted t…

www.thesun.co.uk

Angel of the Meadow - what we know​

Gender - Female

Age Range - 18 - 30

Ethnicity - Unknown

Height - 155cm - 170cm (5 Ft 1 Ins - 5 Ft 6 Ins)

Date Found - 25 January 2010

Body Or Remains - Body

Circumstances - Found at Angel Meadows car park. Covered by a blue carpet prior to discovery

Eye Colour - Unknown

Clothing - Blue jumper, blue bra

Dress - Green. Pinafore with large buttons & unusual design on the front - This was found near the female

Footwear - 1 X black stiletto found near the female

Possessions - Handbag - found near the female. Plain blue carpet found on top of her. Patterned orange carpet also found with the body.
Source: NCA UK Missing Persons Unit

 

[iamshadow21]

• Holly Christodoulou 24 Mar 2024

How dress & pub sign hold key to solving grim 'Angel of the Meadow' murder

A TATTY pinafore dress and discarded shoe belonging to a woman buried in a Victorian slum remain at the centre of a mysterious cold case. In the 1970s or 80s, a young woman was sexually assaulted t…

www.thesun.co.uk

View attachment 532808

Angel of the Meadow - what we know​

Gender - Female

Age Range - 18 - 30

Ethnicity - Unknown

Height - 155cm - 170cm (5 Ft 1 Ins - 5 Ft 6 Ins)

Date Found - 25 January 2010

Body Or Remains - Body

Circumstances - Found at Angel Meadows car park. Covered by a blue carpet prior to discovery

Eye Colour - Unknown

Clothing - Blue jumper, blue bra

Dress - Green. Pinafore with large buttons & unusual design on the front - This was found near the female

Footwear - 1 X black stiletto found near the female

Possessions - Handbag - found near the female. Plain blue carpet found on top of her. Patterned orange carpet also found with the body.
Source: NCA UK Missing Persons Unit
View attachment 532809

View attachment 532810

View attachment 532811

I really, really wish they would give the angel a recon that wasn't so obviously created from postmortem photography. And not even HER postmortem photography, since she was skeletal!

It's not as bad as some of the worst clay recons, but it's close. The instinct is to recoil from it. And the features look like they're floating above the face because everything else is so blurred out. And the weirdness of some skin being blurred and some having detail makes it look like she has a five o'clock shadow.

They need a better reconstruction that looks like a real living person, not a deceased video game character from ten years ago.

MOO

 

[victoriarobinson642]

I really, really wish they would give the angel a recon that wasn't so obviously created from postmortem photography. And not even HER postmortem photography, since she was skeletal!

It's not as bad as some of the worst clay recons, but it's close. The instinct is to recoil from it. And the features look like they're floating above the face because everything else is so blurred out. And the weirdness of some skin being blurred and some having detail makes it look like she has a five o'clock shadow.

They need a better reconstruction that looks like a real living person, not a deceased video game character from ten years ago.

MOO

I know that Hew Morrison does a lot of UK-based Doe reconstructions. I wonder why they didn't seek him out for this one.

 

[Susikatze]

I really, really wish they would give the angel a recon that wasn't so obviously created from postmortem photography. And not even HER postmortem photography, since she was skeletal!

It's not as bad as some of the worst clay recons, but it's close. The instinct is to recoil from it. And the features look like they're floating above the face because everything else is so blurred out. And the weirdness of some skin being blurred and some having detail makes it look like she has a five o'clock shadow.

They need a better reconstruction that looks like a real living person, not a deceased video game character from ten years ago.

MOO

Fully agree. Prof Wilkinson/Dundee Uni is famous in the UK but tbh all her computer recons look like that. No fan at all. This technology needs a dire update. Very outdated. Her clays are better.
Same for "Fred the Head" an UID from Burton on Trent - his original 1970s pencil reconsruction is very good. The computerized recon also done by the University of Dundee software is horrible and shows features that are simply not there if you look at the very distinctive skull.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

I know that Hew Morrison does a lot of UK-based Doe reconstructions. I wonder why they didn't seek him out for this one.

They may well have asked him but Hew is a freelance who carries out work for various UK police forces, museums and similar, as well as for Locate, but there's only one of him and each image takes a lot of work. Some police forces also have their own in-house capabilities so don't put the work out to other parties.

 

[Oriana]

I'm looking at the design on the male dancer's sweater, and the pinafore dress on the girl to his right, complete with rib knit underneath. This is Manchester Evening News dated 1975.

 

[Bit of hope]

I'm looking at the design on the male dancer's sweater, and the pinafore dress on the girl to his right, complete with rib knit underneath. This is Manchester Evening News dated 1975.
View attachment 541513

This would fit into police's believe that 'Angel' died in the 70's.

 

[ZaZara]

I'm looking at the design on the male dancer's sweater, and the pinafore dress on the girl to his right, complete with rib knit underneath. This is Manchester Evening News dated 1975.
View attachment 541513

I always assumed that the pinafore dress was more like an apron from work, with a logo from some supplier like a beer mark or certain snacks. Apparently I was mistaken on two levels! The pinafore dress is a real dress, and for some reason, even nowadays, the pattern that looks like a cockroach with a top hat remains popular. Eek! not to my taste...

This makes me wonder ~did LE ever publish a picture of what the dress might have looked like at the time? Asking the public if they recognised it and perhaps even owned a similar piece of clothing? At the start of this thread, it was suggested that the dress was made of polyester. Possibly a summer dress, and polyester fabric with this pattern would have been produced in bulk. Trendsetter BIBA London sold a lot of clothes made of rayon at the time.


Google cockraoch with top hat and you enter a weird weird world.....

 

[Melt71]

After 400 mis-matches, it is about time to get serious about Genetic Genealogy!

I understood the UK didn't use FGG, has this changed?

 

[Fake Protagonist]

I understood the UK didn't use FGG, has this changed?

Not that I'm aware of as a UK citizen!

 

[ZaZara]

I understood the UK didn't use FGG, has this changed?

Not that I am aware of. Neither has the Netherlands. However, a Dutch court recently gave permission for the use of Genetic Geneaology in two specific cases because LE argued that they had no other option to pursue their investigations, and in one of those cases they expected that GG would be very useful. Also recently, parliament in Belgium agreed to a further exchange of genetic data of UID's and missing people, and this led to immediate results. (Quoting from memory here.)

IMO a change is gonna come in the UK too, and with over 400 ruleouts, Mancunian LE has a strong case.

 

[GreyPhantom]

AI Witness made an AI rendition of her.

I stand by my prediction that she is of Roma (aka gypsy) heritage based on her East Indian features. That she was likely a recent migrant from Eastern Europe to Manchester in the late 60s/early 70s.

That died in 76' to 78' and was around 25 years old.

I think she was doing under the table labour work at a home, hotel or restaurant and her male employer/boss sexually assaulted and killed her.

 

[GreyPhantom]

This is how I envision her looking similar to.

Another Roma young woman from the 60s/70s.

 

[seasideForest]

I stand by my prediction that she is of Roma (aka gypsy) heritage based on her East Indian features. That she was likely a recent migrant from Eastern Europe to Manchester in the late 60s/early 70s.

That died in 76' to 78' and was around 25 years old.

I think she was doing under the table labour work at a home, hotel or restaurant and her male employer/boss sexually assaulted and killed her.

RSBMFF

Is there any particular reason why you predict that she was a recent immigrant from Eastern Europe? I thought the big waves of Romani migrants came in the 1990's onwards. Romani people have been in England since the 16th Century, so she could have been one of them too.
There are probably better sources, but here's a brief intro Romani people in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia

Of course, her being a migrant could help explain why nobody knows who she is and why nobody appeared to miss her.

MOO

 

[Susikatze]

My feeling is the opposite, she was probably local, maybe a runaway or a working girl that LE did not really pursue even if she was reported missing. Or the classic case of a young wife and mom going missing and hubby: „ah she just packed up and left“. Like Patricia McGlone, this case actually reminds me a lot of our Angel. Angel was dressed nicely and fashionably, had nice teeth and was wrapped in carpet. She had severe injuries to her jaw and collarbone consistant with DV. Somehow I tend to think she was killed by a partner rather than someone random.

I dont think the Dundee U recon is good, as ive stated before. I would not spend a lot of thought on it. The clay is better than the digital, though

 

[GreyPhantom]

My feeling is the opposite, she was probably local, maybe a runaway or a working girl that LE did not really pursue even if she was reported missing. Or the classic case of a young wife and mom going missing and hubby: „ah she just packed up and left“. Like Patricia McGlone, this case actually reminds me a lot of our Angel. Angel was dressed nicely and fashionably, had nice teeth and was wrapped in carpet. She had severe injuries to her jaw and collarbone consistant with DV. Somehow I tend to think she was killed by a partner rather than someone random.

I dont think the Dundee U recon is good, as ive stated before. I would not spend a lot of thought on it. The clay is better than the digital, though

She was dressed appropriately for the period but that dress seems very much like a thrift store acquisition. It wasn't a high end pinafore dress by any means. Also, she was missing a front molar pre death so that would suggest poor dental care to me.

A local murdered wife would likely have connections in the community that would report her missing or would have come forward in the past 50 years. That's why I think she was a migrant without direct family here.

 

[GreyPhantom]

My feeling is the opposite, she was probably local, maybe a runaway or a working girl that LE did not really pursue even if she was reported missing. Or the classic case of a young wife and mom going missing and hubby: „ah she just packed up and left“. Like Patricia McGlone, this case actually reminds me a lot of our Angel. Angel was dressed nicely and fashionably, had nice teeth and was wrapped in carpet. She had severe injuries to her jaw and collarbone consistant with DV. Somehow I tend to think she was killed by a partner rather than someone random.

I dont think the Dundee U recon is good, as ive stated before. I would not spend a lot of thought on it. The clay is better than the digital, though

She was dressed appropriately for the period but that dress seems very much like a thrift store acquisition. It wasn't a high end pinafore dress by any means. Also, she was missing a front molar pre death so that would suggest poor dental care to me.

A local murdered wife would likely have connections in the community that would report her missing or would have come forward in the past 50 years. That's why I think she was a migrant without

RSBMFF

Is there any particular reason why you predict that she was a recent immigrant from Eastern Europe? I thought the big waves of Romani migrants came in the 1990's onwards. Romani people have been in England since the 16th Century, so she could have been one of them too.
There are probably better sources, but here's a brief intro Romani people in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia

Of course, her being a migrant could help explain why nobody knows who she is and why nobody appeared to miss her.

MOO

Because of the lack of missing person report presumably (Manchester PD could have dismissed them in the 70s and 80s as there was no body). And that her phenotype really jumps out as East Indian in all the renditions (clay bust, sketch, AI recreation) and her DNA profile was a Caucasian/Middle Eastern/South Asian mix. And as we know now, Roma/Gypsy people are Northern Indian in their genetic origin and migrated to to the Middle East originally.

To me it fits the narrative that the younger Roma people of the Soviet bloc would look for greener pastures (UK, France) at the height of the cold war.

 

[Susikatze]

She was dressed appropriately for the period but that dress seems very much like a thrift store acquisition. It wasn't a high end pinafore dress by any means. Also, she was missing a front molar pre death so that would suggest poor dental care to me.

A local murdered wife would likely have connections in the community that would report her missing or would have come forward in the past 50 years. That's why I think she was a migrant without

Because of the lack of missing person report presumably (Manchester PD could have dismissed them in the 70s and 80s as there was no body). And that her phenotype really jumps out as East Indian in all the renditions (clay bust, sketch, AI recreation) and her DNA profile was a Caucasian/Middle Eastern/South Asian mix. And as we know now, Roma/Gypsy people are Northern Indian in their genetic origin and migrated to to the Middle East originally.

To me it fits the narrative that the younger Roma people of the Soviet bloc would look for greener pastures (UK, France) at the height of the cold war.

Where does it talk about her genetic makeup? Because it would be unusual for an European country, they do not usually do ethnicity estimates, only use very basic MtDNA and that often leads to iffy results such as this one.

 

[seasideForest]

. And as we know now, Roma/Gypsy people are Northern Indian in their genetic origin and migrated to to the Middle East originally.

To me it fits the narrative that the younger Roma people of the Soviet bloc would look for greener pastures (UK, France) at the height of the cold war.

There were Roma/Gypsy people in England for several centuries, she could have been one of them.

I thought that it was really difficult for anybody to leave the Soviet bloc during the Cold War? MOO