UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #11

[Kemug]

Oops! Apologies for my wrong timings people, and thanks for setting me straight!

 

[Officer Dibble]

I think each individual 'oddity' can be excused and explained away. The problem is when you stack them all up, it doesn't make sense they are all just one/off random coincidences. The post-it notes are hard for me to totally explain away.

Another example, LL goes on vacation for 8 days, and no unexplained collapses or deaths in the NICU. She returns to work, and there is an unexplained death, 2 nights in a row. And an unexplained collapse on the 3rd night. [Babies O,P and Q]
These were the last 3 victims and she was removed from the floor after child Q collapsed.

Lucy Letby allegedly wrote a note saying 'I AM EVIL I DID THIS'

Hereford nurse denies murdering seven babies and trying to kill another 10

www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk

Referring back to the last two babies allegedly harmed by Ms Letby, the prosecutor alleged Child P was murdered the day after his brother, Child O, died by Ms Letby in late June 2016.

Child P had an ‘acute desaturation’, was intubated and improved, and efforts were made to relocate him to a different hospital. But during that, he desaturated again and was given treatment which saw his circulation be restored, but he continued to deteriorate, it was said.

Fifteen minutes before he was due to be taken to the other hospital, his blood gases were taken and appeared satisfactory.

“The doctor who was supervising his treatment was ‘optimistic’ for his prospects when all of a sudden Ms Letby said something like ‘he’s not leaving here alive is he’, which surprised him,” Mr Johnson said.

Prosecutors alleged she knew what she had done. Child P sadly collapsed again and all resuscitation attempts were unsuccessful. His cause of death was recorded as Sudden Unexpected Postnatal Collapse, jurors heard.

An independent medical expert reviewing the case concluded Child P had been injected with air through a nasogastric tube, describing it as the ‘only plausible explanation’.

The court heard that after he died, Ms Letby spent time with his parents and at one point took a photograph of both Child O and Child P together in a cot.

The next day, Ms Letby was the designated nurse for a baby boy, Child Q. It is alleged that Ms Letby injected him with air and a clear fluid in an ‘attempt to kill’ him.

Medical notes later showed that lots of clear fluid had been removed from his abdomen, it was said.

That night Ms Letby was ‘worried’ that people were becoming suspicious, the prosecutor said, as she sent a text message to a doctor asking: “Do I need to be worrying about what [the doctor] was asking?”.

Do they tell us what the stats were for deaths after she was removed from the ward?

 

[LorriB]

I don't really find the keeping of patient documents in a bag under the bed odd, unless it was filled only with documents of babies she is accused of killing or attempting to kill.

Otherwise, you're also placing importance on all manner of documents. If you think a handful were kept as tokens, why were the rest kept?

I don't work in a hospital, but I do funnily enough have a bag of work documents from 3+ years ago in the corner of my room. They are varied because I had emptied my work bag into it periodically. I intend to sort through these one day and keep anything important. I'm sure I can't be the only messy person out there who does this!

I'm on the fence over the whole case, but this bit isn't unusual to me.

 

[DianaWW]

Do they tell us what the stats were for deaths after she was removed from the ward?

The ward was downgraded shortly after she left, so the stats don't really mean much unfortunately, as the babies they were treating were less premature. JMO.

 

[DianaWW]

I don't really find the keeping of patient documents in a bag under the bed odd, unless it was filled only with documents of babies she is accused of killing or attempting to kill.

Otherwise, you're also placing importance on all manner of documents. If you think a handful were kept as tokens, why were the rest kept?

I don't work in a hospital, but I do funnily enough have a bag of work documents from 3+ years ago in the corner of my room. They are varied because I had emptied my work bag into it periodically. I intend to sort through these one day and keep anything important. I'm sure I can't be the only messy person out there who does this!

I'm on the fence over the whole case, but this bit isn't unusual to me.

I do wish we knew what else was in the bag. It's quite important IMO, so frustrating that we have such gaps in information that's being reported. However I think a paper towel is slightly different to an actual document, makes it a little more difficult to understand why it was kept. The hospital wouldn't have needed to keep it after all. JMO.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I don't really find the keeping of patient documents in a bag under the bed odd, unless it was filled only with documents of babies she is accused of killing or attempting to kill.

Otherwise, you're also placing importance on all manner of documents. If you think a handful were kept as tokens, why were the rest kept?

I don't work in a hospital, but I do funnily enough have a bag of work documents from 3+ years ago in the corner of my room. They are varied because I had emptied my work bag into it periodically. I intend to sort through these one day and keep anything important. I'm sure I can't be the only messy person out there who does this!

I'm on the fence over the whole case, but this bit isn't unusual to me.

Exactly! I'm sort of the same. I have work related stuff all over the house. Stuff that I've been meaning to either destroy or take back to work and file properly but have never managed to get round to.

I know it's drifting a bit but there have been cases before where a particular piece of evidence has been presented as incriminating when, in fact, when you look at the true context (usually in the setting of hindsight) it becomes obvious it's irrelevant as far as guilt goes; at the trial of Barry George who was wrongly convicted of murdering Jill Dando in 1999 evidence was provided that he had a copy of the BBCs internal magazine which contained an article about her and I think a copy of Radio Times with similar. It turned out however, that he was a hugely obsessional hoarder who had thousands of media related publications in his flat so two publications containing stuff about her was entirely unremarkable. Indeed, it was remarked by someone that it was astonishing that there only two given how famous she was at the time.

I'm not suggesting that LL is some type of weird hoarder, I'm just trying to show that without context there is no relevance to anything. Right now we have no idea of the context of lots of the physical evidence discovery's.

Neither do we really know the context of the ordering of the insulin stocks or the alleged "spike" in deaths which was initially reported in the media. Without proper supporting context all these things are pretty meaningless.

 

[Tortoise]

"Simon Driver, prosecuting, told the court the paper towel – along with a blood gas measurement report for Child M – was discovered in a Morrisons shopping bag beneath a bed in a bedroom at the defendant's former address in Westbourne Road, Chester, on July 4 2018.

Mr Driver asked Mrs Griffith: “Have you ever taken a blood gas record home with you?”

Mrs Griffith said: “No.”

Mr Driver went on: “Have you ever taken home with you the contemporaneous notes for medications given during a resuscitation?”

“No,” repeated the witness.

Ben Myers KC, defending, suggested to Mrs Griffith that some of the notes on the paper towel were also written by Letby.

Mrs Griffith replied: “I can't say. I'm not going to guess.”
Note detailing baby's medication found in Letby's home, court told


There's been nothing in the reporting about the bag containing anything else.

The strangest part for me is the notes being put in a bag and the bag being taken from downstairs to upstairs, to her bedroom, not just thrown in a downstairs cupboard with other shopping bags.

 

[Marantz4250b]

The ward was downgraded shortly after she left, so the stats don't really mean much unfortunately, as the babies they were treating were less premature. JMO.

Indeed! As I say above, the mere fact that there were more deaths in one 12 month period is an irrelevance of itself; was the unit taking more patients; were there more early premature patients; had there been an influx of new staff who might have been less well trained; had there been a loss of staff or lots of staff sickness? There are probably dozens more factors which may have influenced those stats but we simply have no context to said stats.

 

[JosieJo]

I do find it a bit odd because most people would just rip them up tiny and put them in a bin ...but people being different aside ...I find it odd she had them in her pocket at all ...the handover sheets I get ..as a Nurse you would keep them in your pocket....but the blood gas ticket ..they are usually stapled in the notes ..and the Dr would have them to write in the notes ...the same with the list of drugs..the Dr would write up the resus drugs so again would be last person to use them

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

Sorry if I've missed this, but from what I gather the paper towel was basically a very quick way of writing down what happened to be written up properly later. Do we know who wrote it up properly later, was it LL?

 

[DianaWW]

Sorry if I've missed this, but from what I gather the paper towel was basically a very quick way of writing down what happened to be written up properly later. Do we know who wrote it up properly later, was it LL?

I don't think we know, which is a shame as I feel it's quite important. Nor we know for certain if she'd ever written on it herself. Hopefully the jury do! JMO.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I do wish we knew what else was in the bag. It's quite important IMO, so frustrating that we have such gaps in information that's being reported. However I think a paper towel is slightly different to an actual document, makes it a little more difficult to understand why it was kept. The hospital wouldn't have needed to keep it after all. JMO.

It's extremely important to know what else was in the bag, if anything. If the towel was inside a pocket of an item of clothing which was in the bag with loads of other clothes then it would appear to be in no way suspicious.

If it was in the bag along with loads of other documents all of which referred to the babies in the allegations and a load of part-used insulin vials and memory cards containg pictures of sick and dying children then that paints an entirely different picture!

Context is everything and so far we have none.

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

I don't think we know, which is a shame as I feel it's quite important. Nor we know for certain if she'd ever written on it herself. Hopefully the jury do! JMO.

Yeah because if she wrote it up it does make a little more sense to accidentally take it home, still makes no sense to keep it under the bed to me, but I can see how you might type up the notes from it and then just put it in your pocket to put in the bin later and forget. If someone else wrote them up, then she's had to take it back off them purposefully, or go and find it to keep it. I hope we do know because it would make a difference to me

 

[Sweeper2000]

I was wondering what information exactly is kept on a blood gas record? seems small enough really and if it’s only read once then disposed of or filed it’s conceivable to pocket it. If there is info on it that is particular to the patient? If not LL might not have even known it belonged with child ms files. Especially if on a ward you read bg records multiple times a day.

 

[Tortoise]

Exactly! I'm sort of the same. I have work related stuff all over the house. Stuff that I've been meaning to either destroy or take back to work and file properly but have never managed to get round to.

I know it's drifting a bit but there have been cases before where a particular piece of evidence has been presented as incriminating when, in fact, when you look at the true context (usually in the setting of hindsight) it becomes obvious it's irrelevant as far as guilt goes; at the trial of Barry George who was wrongly convicted of murdering Jill Dando in 1999 evidence was provided that he had a copy of the BBCs internal magazine which contained an article about her and I think a copy of Radio Times with similar. It turned out however, that he was a hugely obsessional hoarder who had thousands of media related publications in his flat so two publications containing stuff about her was entirely unremarkable. Indeed, it was remarked by someone that it was astonishing that there only two given how famous she was at the time.

I'm not suggesting that LL is some type of weird hoarder, I'm just trying to show that without context there is no relevance to anything. Right now we have no idea of the context of lots of the physical evidence discovery's.

Neither do we really know the context of the ordering of the insulin stocks or the alleged "spike" in deaths which was initially reported in the media. Without proper supporting context all these things are pretty meaningless.

As regards the issue of insulin by the pharmacy to the unit, I think it's relevance is to show that there was sufficient stock in the fridge for two or three bottles to have been taken and used inappropriately. These bottles can be kept unopened for a year. It wouldn't be possible for 3 bottles to have gone missing if that's all there had been in the fridge, leaving nothing for legitimate purposes. JMO

 

[Marantz4250b]

As regards the issue of insulin by the pharmacy to the unit, I think it's relevance is to show that there was sufficient stock in the fridge for two or three bottles to have been taken and used inappropriately. These bottles can be kept unopened for a year. It wouldn't be possible for 3 bottles to have gone missing if that's all there had been in the fridge, leaving nothing for legitimate purposes. JMO

I read it slightly differently; to me it seemed as though the implication was that more was being ordered than was actually required. They never actually said what the stock levels were at any given time, just what was ordered. If you don't balance what's in stock in the fridge with what was ordered and what was used or disposed of then the spike in orders is irrelevant.

They gave order figures for three years, just like they did for the rise in deaths and we know that they are saying that LL was responsible for those deaths.

Again, without context, people arrive at different conclusions, and quite reasonably so.

So, in the case of the order levels of insulin we have yet another completely meaningless figure. Clearly, though, the implication is that it points to some nefarious act as it's a prosecution figure and there is no reason to introduce it unless it supports or implies guilt.

 

[katydid23]

Indeed! As I say above, the mere fact that there were more deaths in one 12 month period is an irrelevance of itself; was the unit taking more patients; were there more early premature patients; had there been an influx of new staff who might have been less well trained; had there been a loss of staff or lots of staff sickness? There are probably dozens more factors which may have influenced those stats but we simply have no context to said stats.

If any of those things above had happened---the unit took in many more premature patients in that 12 months, the unit had large loss of staff or an increase in sickness, etc----the 2 year intensive investigation would likely not have concluded that it was a malicious string of attacks.

I doubt the hospital wanted to conclude they had a serial killer on staff. If they could have shown statistically that it was because of an influx of fragile patients and a lack of skilled staff they would have gladly done so. JMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

I’m trying to think of what if any significance can be attached to finding those records under the bed. I might think that if they were found in a cupboard ie under the stairs they would be absolutely no importance whatsoever. Literally put away to never see the light of day again. Under the bed suggests to me that it is at least of some importance to whoever placed them there. We know she was apparently devoted to her work so maybe anything that looks clinical would be stored and more available than something thrown under the stairs. You might for instance put something like an old bill or p45 under the stairs as you won’t likely need them but something that is applicable to an ongoing thing like work might be stored for more immediate use.

agree with everyone about the context. Lack of detail leaves nothing to work with. I’m sure we can say it wasn’t found with the handover sheets at least.

I would definitely agree with the post that if it was found in a bag by itself it’s conceivable to have been put in and forgotten about.

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

I’m trying to think of what if any significance can be attached to finding those records under the bed. I might think that if they were found in a cupboard ie under the stairs they would be absolutely no importance whatsoever. Literally put away to never see the light of day again. Under the bed suggests to me that it is at least of some importance to whoever placed them there. We know she was apparently devoted to her work so maybe anything that looks clinical would be stored and more available than something thrown under the stairs. You might for instance put something like an old bill or p45 under the stairs as you won’t likely need them but something that is applicable to an ongoing thing like work might be stored for more immediate use.

agree with everyone about the context. Lack of detail leaves nothing to work with. I’m sure we can say it wasn’t found with the handover sheets at least.

I would definitely agree with the post that if it was found in a bag by itself it’s conceivable to have been put in and forgotten about.

Yes, it's as tortoise said, it's one thing to be in the junk drawer or cupboard under the stairs type place where junk just accumulates or you just fling stuff and shut the door but under the bed means, specifically taken upstairs and put under the bed, to me anyway.

 

[katydid23]

DBM