UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #11

[JosieJo]

Sorry if I've missed this, but from what I gather the paper towel was basically a very quick way of writing down what happened to be written up properly later. Do we know who wrote it up properly later, was it LL?

It hasn't been said but imo it's normally the Dr writes up the drugs in the notes ..not a nurse as its a prescription

 

[Sweeper2000]

It hasn't been said but imo it's normally the Dr writes up the drugs in the notes ..not a nurse as its a prescription

I’m not sure if it’s been said already but I’m wondering if there is info on a blood gas record particular to the patient?

is there also potential for a nurse to narrate the notes to the doctor who is typing them up or writing them down into the case file?

 

[JosieJo]

I’m not sure if it’s been said already but I’m wondering if there is info on a blood gas record particular to the patient?

is there also potential for a nurse to narrate the notes to the doctor who is typing them up or writing them down into the case file?

It's not impossible but it would be most unusual for a nurse to narrate to a Dr ..that's stuff of the 1950s..plus she wasn't the designated nurse or was she the nurse responsible for drawing up the drugs according to the testimony

 

[Sweeper2000]

It's not impossible but it would be most unusual for a nurse to narrate to a Dr ..that's stuff of the 1950s..plus she wasn't the designated nurse or was she the nurse responsible for drawing up the drugs according to the testimony

mg is the designated nurse as well.

“Giving evidence nurse Mary Griffith said she was responsible for drawing up and checking the resuscitation drugs for Child M.

She told the court the paper towel would have been on the resuscitation trolley and provided a record for doctors of what drugs had been given and when as events unfolded.”

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2023-02-21/note-detailing-drugs-given-to-baby-found-at-letbys-home-court-hears

I think mr Myers has said LL wroy at least something on the towel as well.

Mr Myers made the same suggestion to another nurse, who cannot be identified for legal reasons, who said she thought “possibly” one of the entries was in Letby’s handwriting, but added: “I can’t be sure.”

same article.

 

[katydid23]

Dan O'Donoghue
@MrDanDonoghue
·
15m

I'm back at Manchester Crown Court this morning where we'll be continuing to hear evidence in the trial of nurse LucyLetby. Ms Letby is accused of murdering seven babies and attempting to murder 10 others at the Countess of Chester Hospital between 2015/16. She denies all charges

Replying to
@MrDanDonoghue
Nurse Belinda Williamson is first in the witness box today. She is giving evidence in relation to the collapse of Child M on 9 April 2016. The prosecution say Ms Letby injected the infant with air - causing a near fatal collapse.


Ms Williamson is recalling Child M's sudden collapse at 16:00 on 9 April. She says he looked 'pale and mottled. not quite right'...soon after a crash resus call went out and the infant needed 25mins of CPR and six doses of adrenaline


https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

The nurse did not take part in the resus directly, but she did send word to get Child M's parents who were still at the hospital. She recalls that there was 'talk of discontinuing' before Child M stabilised

Jury are being read statements from other nurses that were present at the time of Child M's collapse (this is agreed evidence). Nurse Ashleigh Hudson said she recalls Letby shouting ‘can I have some help please'

She said there was 'no panic in her voice, which is normal to avoid alarming patients who may be on the unit'

 

[katydid23]

The twins, L and M, seem to be a mirror image of the case of the twins, E and F.

In both cases, one twin poisoned with insulin and the other having an air embolism.

Could that ever be seen as a random coincidence, that 2 sets of twins, in the same hospital, have that same outcome?

ETA:

Twin babies E and F:

Mother walked in on nurse Lucy Letby trying to kill baby, court told

Defendant accused of murdering seven babies allegedly said ‘trust me, I’m a nurse’ when interrupted

www.theguardian.com

Experts later concluded that Baby E died as a result of gas intentionally injected into his bloodstream and “bleeding indicative of trauma”, the jury was told.

Letby took an “unusual interest” in the twins’ family, searching for them on social media two days after Baby E’s death and several times over the following months – even on Christmas Day 2015, the court heard.

The nurse allegedly “wiped out” the mother’s visit from the medical records then falsely claimed to be in another room when Baby E collapsed. This, the prosecution alleged, was Letby trying to establish an “alibi in someone else’s medical records”.

Jurors were told that Letby then took a “sinister” interested in Baby E’s twin brother, six-day old Baby F.

The nurse allegedly administered a feeding bag laced with insulin to Baby F less than 24 hours after his sibling had died.

 

[Marantz4250b]

If any of those things above had happened---the unit took in many more premature patients in that 12 months, the unit had large loss of staff or an increase in sickness, etc----the 2 year intensive investigation would likely not have concluded that it was a malicious string of attacks.

I doubt the hospital wanted to conclude they had a serial killer on staff. If they could have shown statistically that it was because of an influx of fragile patients and a lack of skilled staff they would have gladly done so. JMO

We don't really know whether they considered any of this in their investigations, though.

Also, the hospital's investigations did not conclude it was a malicious string of attacks. They asked the police to investigate whether anything criminal had gone on after they couldn't determine what (if anything) was causing it.

The RCPCH report in 2016, however, did note that there were "...significant gaps in medical and nursing rotas and insufficient staffing for the provision of longer-term, high-dependency and some intensive care.".

Perhaps a cunning serial killer operating is indeed preferable to the hospital than them happening as a result of their incompetence and ineptitude?

Again, though, without the proper context - which we simply do not know - the raw figures are pretty meaningless in demonstrating any causative factor.

Nurse's home searched by police following baby murder arrests

Detectives have been searching a nurse's home after a healthcare worker was held on suspicion of murdering eight babies and the attempted murder of another six at a neonatal unit.

www.standard.co.uk

 

[Marantz4250b]

I would definitely agree with the post that if it was found in a bag by itself it’s conceivable to have been put in and forgotten about.

If the bag had once contained clothes and it had come out of a pocket then it's a perfectly reasonable explanation for it being there. I often have supermarket bags stuffed with clothes in the bedroom as I use them to put them in before and after I put them in the washer. Women, in my experience, are notorious for it - I've had exes who have had literally dozens of them filled with clothes on a constant basis to the point where I'd forgotten what the bedroom floor looked like. Shopping bags in bedrooms and stuffed under beds have been common place in my life for more than a couple of decades. It's nothing unusual.

Again, though, context is everything and we have none of that as yet. The jury will have as I'm sure they will have photos of all of the evidence in situ at the time it was found.

 

[katydid23]

Dan O'Donoghue
@MrDanDonoghue
Paediatric consultant Dr Ravi Jayaram is now in the witness box. Dr Jayaram was the on call consultant on 9 April


Asked if any concerns about Child M had been brought to his attention at the start of his shift that day, he said 'no, not at all'

Dr Jayaram recalls receiving a crash call - as it was a Saturday he doesn't remember whether he was on site or at home at the time. When he arrived on the unit, Child M was receiving CPR

Dr Jayaram is taking the court through his notes from 9 April. They show he arrived at 16:15. Child M had already received three doses of adrenaline and had been intubated

 

[Sweeper2000]

If the bag had once contained clothes and it had come out of a pocket then it's a perfectly reasonable explanation for it being there. I often have supermarket bags stuffed with clothes in the bedroom as I use them to put them in before and after I put them in the washer. Women, in my experience, are notorious for it - I've had exes who have had literally dozens of them filled with clothes on a constant basis to the point where I'd forgotten what the bedroom floor looked like. Shopping bags in bedrooms and stuffed under beds have been common place in my life for more than a couple of decades. It's nothing unusual.

Again, though, context is everything and we have none of that as yet. The jury will have as I'm sure they will have photos of all of the evidence in situ at the time it was found.

I was thinking say she put the notes and record in her pocket after reading them. It’s conceivable to go shopping later, then when your taking the purse out to pay you take the notes out as well then straight in the bag after. Get home with some nibbles for bed time then just putting the bag under the bed with the rest of the potentially useable stuff later. Completely not knowing what’s in the bag.

im going to tweet dan and ask if there is more details for the Morrison’s bag. People seem to want to know.

 

[katydid23]

We don't really know whether they considered any of this in their investigations, though.

Also, the hospital's investigations did not conclude it was a malicious string of attacks. They asked the police to investigate whether anything criminal had gone on after they couldn't determine what (if anything) was causing it.

The RCPCH report in 2016, however, did note that there were "...significant gaps in medical and nursing rotas and insufficient staffing for the provision of longer-term, high-dependency and some intensive care.".

Perhaps a cunning serial killer operating is indeed preferable to the hospital than them happening as a result of their incompetence and ineptitude?

Again, though, without the proper context - which we simply do not know - the raw figures are pretty meaningless in demonstrating any causative factor.

Nurse's home searched by police following baby murder arrests

Detectives have been searching a nurse's home after a healthcare worker was held on suspicion of murdering eight babies and the attempted murder of another six at a neonatal unit.

www.standard.co.uk

It was a team of experts trying to understand the spike in deaths. Of course they are going to look at the obvious things you discussed, such as numbers of patients and severity of their conditions and lack of trained staff. What else would they look at? JMO

It was only after they couldn't find those types of explanations that they sent it to Law Enforcement and criminal investigators. JMO

And I know the hospital didn't 'conclude' it was a malicious string of attacks----but they did entertain the possibility or they wouldn't have handed it to criminal investigators. IMO

 

[katydid23]

Do they tell us what the stats were for deaths after she was removed from the ward?

After she was removed from the floor, the authorities downgraded the trauma level of the hospital----so they could no longer care for the most premature, fragile babies anymore. So we cannot really compare the stats.

However, the defense attorney keeps trying g to use that 'downgrade' to the defendant's benefit, by claiming it shows the hospital was suboptimal.

My contention is that his defendant was allegedly the one who was the most suboptimal, to the extreme. I think she was the main reason they were downgraded. JMO

 

[katydid23]

Dan O'Donoghue
@MrDanDonoghue


Dr Jayaram recalls having a conversation with Child M's family after 20mins of resus about whether they should stop. 'Generally the longer it goes on for, the less likely it is to have a good outcome. These decisions are very, very difficult', he tells the court.

He said after 25mins, Child M 'suddenly recovered' - he said it wasn't due to a 'any specific intervention' by medics

'I couldn’t really explain what had caused it and why he suddenly got better', he added. Dr Jayaram tells the court that during CPR he noticed 'bright pink blotches' on Child M's torso - these blotches 'would appear and disappear'

He said once circulation was restored and Child M was stable 'they vanished'. Dr Jayaram tells the court that he observed similar blotches in another baby in this case - they later prompted him to begin researching air embolis (the injection of air) as a potential cause

 

[katydid23]

Dan O'Donoghue

@MrDanDonoghue


He told the court: 'In June 2016, after a number of further unusual, unexpected and inexplicable events on the neonatal unit, the whole consultant body sat down and thought we have to work out what's going on here.

'One of the things that came up in discussion was could this be air embolis, I can’t remember who suggested it.

'It prompted me to do a literature search. I remember sitting on my sofa at home with my ipad, researching. I remember the physical chill that went down my spine when I read that because it fitted with what we were seeing'

 

[bbsaz]

Dan O'Donoghue
@MrDanDonoghue


He told the court: 'In June 2016, after a number of further unusual, unexpected and inexplicable events on the neonatal unit, the whole consultant body sat down and thought we have to work out what's going on here.

'One of the things that came up in discussion was could this be air embolis, I can’t remember who suggested it.

'It prompted me to do a literature search. I remember sitting on my sofa at home with my ipad, researching. I remember the physical chill that went down my spine when I read that because it fitted with what we were seeing'

This is very damning imo.

 

[Officer Dibble]

After she was removed from the floor, the authorities downgraded the trauma level of the hospital----so they could no longer care for the most premature, fragile babies anymore. So we cannot really compare the stats.

However, the defense attorney keeps trying g to use that 'downgrade' to the defendant's benefit, by claiming it shows the hospital was suboptimal.

My contention is that his defendant was allegedly the one who was the most suboptimal, to the extreme. I think she was the main reason they were downgraded. JMO

thank you for explaining that.

 

[katydid23]

Dan O'Donoghue


Ben Myers KC, defending, is now questioning Dr Jayaram. He points out that his notes from the time of Child M did not make any reference to 'pink blotches' - he says surely this would be an important detail that should have been recorded

Mr Myers suggests it is 'incompetent' not to have noted the blotches - Dr Jayaram explains at the time many other things were happening and full relevance of blotches wasn't realised

 

[Sweeper2000]

After she was removed from the floor, the authorities downgraded the trauma level of the hospital----so they could no longer care for the most premature, fragile babies anymore. So we cannot really compare the stats.

However, the defense attorney keeps trying g to use that 'downgrade' to the defendant's benefit, by claiming it shows the hospital was suboptimal.

My contention is that his defendant was allegedly the one who was the most suboptimal, to the extreme. I think she was the main reason they were downgraded. JMO

I think the downgrade could have multiple readings.

1. At that point in time they couldn’t say for certain that with LL removed the problems would be resolved, if it’s not her it’s the unit.
2. with LL being one of the most qualified nurses and a general scarcity of staff trained for icu maybe hdu her removal means the unit couldn’t continue to treat to that level of care
3. it actually reflects badly on the unit that these events being well above levels of expectations happened at all.


im glad we now know at least some detail around what caused suspicions. All consultants sitting around the table suggesting stuff.

correction. I’m glad we now know at least something about the root of the process that led to LL being in the dock. Consultants sitting around a table discussing the highly unusual events In June 2016.

 

[katydid23]

This is very damning imo.

It is very damning.

I hope the jury is focused in today because a few damning things are coming into focus for me.

What are the chances of two separate sets of twins being born at the same hospital --- one is poisoned with insulin, and the other given an unexplained air embolism ? Same in each case.

And both sets of twins suffered unexpected and unexplained collapses, within 24 hours of each other.

Twin E died on Aug 4th, Twin F collapsed on Aug 5th, 2015.

Twin L collapsed on April 9th, 2016, then Twin M collapsed hours later.

 

[katydid23]

I think the downgrade could have multiple readings.

1. At that point in time they couldn’t say for certain that with LL removed the problems would be resolved, if it’s not her it’s the unit.
2. with LL being one of the most qualified nurses and a general scarcity of staff trained for icu maybe hdu her removal means the unit couldn’t continue to treat to that level of care
3. it actually reflects badly on the unit that these events being well above levels of expectations happened at all.


im glad we now know at least some detail around what caused suspicions. All consultants sitting around the table suggesting stuff.

"im glad we now know at least some detail around what caused suspicions. All consultants sitting around the table suggesting stuff."

I don't fully agree with the wording above.^^^^^
The consultants did not 'cause' the suspicion. The surge in unexplained collapses caused the suspicion.

The suspicion 'caused' the consultants to sit around the table to discuss what they thought could be happening.