UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #12

[Marantz4250b]

So, I've been wondering, from a legal point of view, if a nurse watched a baby dislodge her own breathing tube, and watched her stop breathing - forget for a moment the allegations of the monitor being paused - and purposely did nothing to help, would that count as murder?

I think it could. As a general principle of law you cannot be convicted of an offence through failing to lend aid or assistance. However, some people in very specific circumstances can be where the law requires an intervention because a special relationship exists between you and the dead person. It's a relationship where the victim relies upon you, essentially.

I'm not sure how or whether it applies to nurses, specifically, it depends on the specific relationship.

I don't have links handy so consider it my opinion, but someone more knowledgeable will fill out the details.

 

[Sundial]

she asked a colleague who had told her about baby E's death, in August

she asked JJ-K who had told her about baby G's collapse in September

she complained to the manager about not so positive comments regarding her role after baby I's death in October

she was seen crying that it always happens to her a lot, around the time of baby I's death.

And then November, (was it? Trying to keep up!).. 2015, the first “concerns” raised reportedly from dr j as heard in evidence today.

 

[Sundial]

Just did a quick google search. I think the messages might be in the Baby H case?

Thank you. So possibly some time between September and October (2015).
Given the events we’ve heard thus far and her text exchanges (also with management about her role etc), I can see why by November 2015 Dr J is then raising his concerns. It seems he wasn’t alone in his views either. Very odd imo

 

[Tortoise]

And then November, (was it? Trying to keep up!).. 2015, the first “concerns” raised reportedly from dr j as heard in evidence today.

October he said.

 

[ColourPurple]

So, I've been wondering, from a legal point of view, if a nurse watched a baby dislodge her own breathing tube, and watched her stop breathing - forget for a moment the allegations of the monitor being paused - and purposely did nothing to help, would that count as murder?

Similar to this case, although they didn't pursue manslaughter charges as they said he may not have survived the heart attack.



A paramedic who stood with his hands in his pockets as a heart attack victim lay dying outside an NHS hospital has been spared jail.

Matthew Geary was given a suspended eight-month prison term after a court heard that he failed to provide any help to the patient despite seeing him stumble and fall to the ground..

The 36-year-old, from Great Wyrley, Staffordshire, pleaded guilty at an earlier hearing to breaching health and safety laws by failing to conduct a proper examination of Mr Cope or to attempt prompt resuscitation...

A postmortem confirmed Mr Cope died of a heart attack. Had his chest pain been considered and monitored properly, experts said his chances of survival would have been ‘significantly higher’.

Geary was among five ambulance and hospital staff arrested on suspicion of manslaughter in connection with Mr Cope’s death, which happened at around 10.15am on June 23.

Manslaughter charges were not pursued as he may not have survived the heart attack.

Paramedic stood and watched man, 47, die of heart attack

Paramedic Matt Geary, 36, watched from his ambulance as Carl Cope collapsed and waits 30 seconds before attending to him

www.mirror.co.uk

 

[Dotta]

"Doctor ‘wishes he had gone straight to police over Lucy Letby concerns’. ​

'As clinicians, we put our faith in the system…

in senior management to escalate concerns and investigate them.

The initial response was, ‘It’s unlikely that anything is going on. We’ll see what happens’.

“We said, ‘OK’ – against our better judgment in retrospect.' ”

Doctor ‘wishes he had gone straight to police over Lucy Letby concerns’ | BreakingNews

Letby is accused of murdering seven babies and attempting to murder 10 others at the Countess of Chester Hospital between June 2015 and June 2016.

www.breakingnews.ie

 

[Dotta]

Similar to this case, although they didn't pursue manslaughter charges as they said he may not have survived the heart attack.



A paramedic who stood with his hands in his pockets as a heart attack victim lay dying outside an NHS hospital has been spared jail.

Matthew Geary was given a suspended eight-month prison term after a court heard that he failed to provide any help to the patient despite seeing him stumble and fall to the ground..

The 36-year-old, from Great Wyrley, Staffordshire, pleaded guilty at an earlier hearing to breaching health and safety laws by failing to conduct a proper examination of Mr Cope or to attempt prompt resuscitation...

A postmortem confirmed Mr Cope died of a heart attack. Had his chest pain been considered and monitored properly, experts said his chances of survival would have been ‘significantly higher’.

Geary was among five ambulance and hospital staff arrested on suspicion of manslaughter in connection with Mr Cope’s death, which happened at around 10.15am on June 23.

Manslaughter charges were not pursued as he may not have survived the heart attack.

Paramedic stood and watched man, 47, die of heart attack

Paramedic Matt Geary, 36, watched from his ambulance as Carl Cope collapsed and waits 30 seconds before attending to him

www.mirror.co.uk

"With his hands in his pockets...
as a victim lay dying..."

Simply NO comment.

 

[Tortoise]

Similar to this case, although they didn't pursue manslaughter charges as they said he may not have survived the heart attack.



A paramedic who stood with his hands in his pockets as a heart attack victim lay dying outside an NHS hospital has been spared jail.

Matthew Geary was given a suspended eight-month prison term after a court heard that he failed to provide any help to the patient despite seeing him stumble and fall to the ground..

The 36-year-old, from Great Wyrley, Staffordshire, pleaded guilty at an earlier hearing to breaching health and safety laws by failing to conduct a proper examination of Mr Cope or to attempt prompt resuscitation...

A postmortem confirmed Mr Cope died of a heart attack. Had his chest pain been considered and monitored properly, experts said his chances of survival would have been ‘significantly higher’.

Geary was among five ambulance and hospital staff arrested on suspicion of manslaughter in connection with Mr Cope’s death, which happened at around 10.15am on June 23.

Manslaughter charges were not pursued as he may not have survived the heart attack.

Paramedic stood and watched man, 47, die of heart attack

Paramedic Matt Geary, 36, watched from his ambulance as Carl Cope collapsed and waits 30 seconds before attending to him

www.mirror.co.uk

I suppose it might require a positive action to increase the likelihood of death then. The pausing of the alarm, which would prevent or delay emergency assistance, might be seen as a positive action, IMO.

 

[Sundial]

October he said.

Just trying to match some of the previous comments heard in evidence so far and possible concerns from colleagues:

June 2015: baby D (Dr Brearey raises concerns)

August 2015: baby E (“comments of “who told you” to a colleague)
Sept 2015: baby G “conversation with jjk “who told you”
Between sept-oct: baby H (comments around bitchiness and her role and discussion with unit manager?)
Oct: baby I: (seen crying “always happens to me” comments)
Oct 2015: dr J raises concerns
Feb 2016: baby K (this weeks evidence and concerns again by dr J)

Recap and todays evidence:

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, February 28

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[marynnu]

So, I've been wondering, from a legal point of view, if a nurse watched a baby dislodge her own breathing tube, and watched her stop breathing - forget for a moment the allegations of the monitor being paused - and purposely did nothing to help, would that count as murder?

What an interesting question! I have no legal knowledge, but if pushed I'd guess yes. As a neonatal nurse you know 100% that a baby of 25 weeks' gestation will die without respiratory support. For me, witholding ventilation would be a conscious decision to ensure death will ensue. JMO.

 

[Becky53]

Evidence from last week -

"The court went on to hear that Dr Stephen Brearey, head of the neo-natal unit, reviewed the circumstances surrounding the case of Child D shortly after her death in June 2015.

Dr Jayaram said it was not a formal review and he discussed the findings with Dr Brearey who had looked at case papers and files.

Mr Myers said: “He identified Lucy Letby as a person of interest.”

Dr Jayaram replied: “I think he noticed that Lucy Letby was the nurse looking after these babies and that was it.”

Mr Myers went on: “He raised with you the fact that Lucy Letby was present on these occasions?”

“Yes,” said Dr Jayaram."

more to read at link Lucy Letby trial: Doctor tells of shock at possible baby deaths cause

Add to that

Doctor ‘wishes he had gone straight to police over Lucy Letby concerns’

Letby is accused of murdering seven babies and attempting to murder 10 others at the Countess of Chester Hospital between June 2015 and June 2016.

www.times-series.co.uk

Dr Stephen Brearey, head of the neonatal unit, reviewed the circumstances surrounding the case of Child D shortly after her death in June 2015, the court was told previously.

Dr Jayaram said the review identified Letby’s presence at a number of collapses but it was “an association, nothing more”.

On Tuesday, he said concerns were flagged a second time in February 2016, to the medical director and the director of nursing.

He said: “My colleague Dr Brearey requested a meeting with them. They didn’t respond to that for another three months and we were stuck because we had concerns and didn’t know what to do.

“Eventually, we reached a point in June 2016 when we said, ‘Something has got to change’, but that’s not for me to talk about now.”

Ben Myers KC, defending, said the doctors were “grown adults” who could have gone straight to the police.


Hopefully Dr Brearey will clarify at some point.

 

[Sundial]

What an interesting question! I have no legal knowledge, but if pushed I'd guess yes. As a neonatal nurse you know 100% that a baby of 25 weeks' gestation will die without respiratory support. For me, witholding ventilation would be a conscious decision to ensure death will ensue. JMO.

I wonder if this has any connection (if any) to the “fate” comments as heard in evidence. It was mentioned previously to the baby “long-awaited” (ivf) etc. Assistance to have a family with ivf, assisting a 25 week baby to survive- interesting thoughts here. All my own view of course.

 

[ColourPurple]

I suppose it might require a positive action to increase the likelihood of death then. The pausing of the alarm, which would prevent or delay emergency assistance, might be seen as a positive action, IMO.

I think it would probably come down to whether the victim would have definitely survived the incident if the medic had intervened.

 

[Sundial]

“Eventually, we reached a point in June 2016 when we said, ‘Something has got to change’, but that’s not for me to talk about now.”

Ben Myers KC, defending, said the doctors were “grown adults” who could have gone straight to the police.


Hopefully Dr Brearey will clarify at some point.

Highlighted for focus; I wonder if this part then will be discussed further by others

 

[Marantz4250b]

I suppose it might require a positive action to increase the likelihood of death then. The pausing of the alarm, which would prevent or delay emergency assistance, might be seen as a positive action, IMO.

I don't think it requires any positive action; these cases are very rare but I think that simply standing by and not doing anything can, in theory, get you convicted of at least manslaughter. A relationship needs to exist whereby there is a legal duty on the passive person to try to stop the death happening and there aren't many of those. If you are a nurse on a ward and you simply ignore a patient who is struggling to breathe, for instance, I'd imagine that that relationship would be held to be in existence because you, by being an on duty nurse, have been specifically charged with that person's care.

I don't have links so should be taken as MOO but I'm sure I've seen it mentioned in CPS guidance somewhere.

 

[Tortoise]

What an interesting question! I have no legal knowledge, but if pushed I'd guess yes. As a neonatal nurse you know 100% that a baby of 25 weeks' gestation will die without respiratory support. For me, witholding ventilation would be a conscious decision to ensure death will ensue. JMO.

This might apply - although I don't know if it only applies to parents.

Following R v Gibbins & Proctor, and the passing of the Children and Young Persons Act 1933, it became a criminal offence to neglect a child in a way which would likely cause injury or risk to health. It is still likely however that following the more recent case of R v Stone & Dobinson,[20] a conviction for manslaughter or murder would arise, where the neglect or lack of care by a parent is either intentional, or grossly negligent.[17]

Omissions in English criminal law - Wikipedia

 

[Sundial]

This might apply - although I don't know if it only applies to parents.

Following R v Gibbins & Proctor, and the passing of the Children and Young Persons Act 1933, it became a criminal offence to neglect a child in a way which would likely cause injury or risk to health. It is still likely however that following the more recent case of R v Stone & Dobinson,[20] a conviction for manslaughter or murder would arise, where the neglect or lack of care by a parent is either intentional, or grossly negligent.[17]

Omissions in English criminal law - Wikipedia

Also this one specifically for nurses (uk)
Failure to avoid any harm and duty of reasonable standard of care is an act of negligence.

Duty of care | Advice guides | Royal College of Nursing

An advice guide for nursing staff on the duty of care covering definitions, emergency situations and conflict with employer's instructions.

www.rcn.org.uk

 

[Tortoise]

I think it would probably come down to whether the victim would have definitely survived the incident if the medic had intervened.

That much has been proven because she did survive, that day, when Dr Jayaram intervened.

 

[Furore]

Add to that

Doctor ‘wishes he had gone straight to police over Lucy Letby concerns’

Letby is accused of murdering seven babies and attempting to murder 10 others at the Countess of Chester Hospital between June 2015 and June 2016.

www.times-series.co.uk

Dr Stephen Brearey, head of the neonatal unit, reviewed the circumstances surrounding the case of Child D shortly after her death in June 2015, the court was told previously.

Dr Jayaram said the review identified Letby’s presence at a number of collapses but it was “an association, nothing more”.

On Tuesday, he said concerns were flagged a second time in February 2016, to the medical director and the director of nursing.

He said: “My colleague Dr Brearey requested a meeting with them. They didn’t respond to that for another three months and we were stuck because we had concerns and didn’t know what to do.

“Eventually, we reached a point in June 2016 when we said, ‘Something has got to change’, but that’s not for me to talk about now.”

Ben Myers KC, defending, said the doctors were “grown adults” who could have gone straight to the police.


Hopefully Dr Brearey will clarify at some point.

I think quite pointed question or statement from QC there. Given power dynamic that could potentially be between doctors and nurses and the way rota shift patterns mean same staff aren’t always together, absolutely appropriate to escalate this to a manager - literally what they’re there for. Especially when nothing was specifically witnessed according to the paediatrician testimony today.

It must feel incredible to consider even for a moment there is a serial killer in the midst, just that something odd was happening. Not surprised they didn’t go straight to police imo.literally what senior management are the Lee for and highly concerning a patient safety issue wasn’t responded to. IMO

 

[Furore]

Both physician and nurse were found guilty of gross negligence manslaughter in the Jack Adcock case (somewhat unfairly it was felt by some, given computer systems down and covering multiple people’s sickness) Hadiza Bawa-Garba case - Wikipedia