UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #12

[Marantz4250b]

Perhaps there was also (unintentional?) gaslighting of Dr J by the managers. He’s apparently raised concerns before now and they brushed them off. So in his mind, he might already be thinking that he is a bit crazy with his suspicions because he has essentially been told as much when he was dismissed by senior management.

I suppose it depends on how senior management was generally. If senior management had always in Dr Jays experience acted reasonably, then it makes sense that he would follow their advice when they told him to drop it, because he has no reason to distrust them. But if senior management has generally been pretty poor, there is more of an argument that he should have pressed ahead with his concerns even when they were telling him to stop.

I don't buy that because they'd also have to be gaslighting the several other consultants he says also raised concerns with him.

Also, as I say, if you and your peers have decided months ago the she is harming babies it makes little sense that you'd be in a state of questioning your own sanity.

 

[JosieJo]

I really do not think people know how difficult it is for someone to name and shame hospital directors...he is the only person who has stood up in court and said he told people

 

[scottishgal]

He is defending someone accused of exceptionally serious charges and the good Dr's evidence appears to be somewhat inconsistent. I don't think he's being rude at all.

Thank you , you are right ...no one 's job is easy here ...

 

[Sundial]

He spoke to the nurse director and medical director months apart ..the medical director was to arrange a meeting but 3 months later it hadn't been arranged

"Dr Jayaram said the team told the senior director of nursing in autumn 2015 but nothing was done. He said it was raised again in February 2016, and the hospital’s medical director was told at this point. The doctors asked for a meeting but didn’t hear back for another 3 months."

Link in earlier post

This delay by senior management when there were concerns being raised is just bizarre IMO

 

[JosieJo]

This delay by senior management when there were concerns being raised is just bizarre IMO

It doesn't surprise me ...but those Directors should have acted on concerns imo

 

[scottishgal]

The defense say Dr J could be having confirmation bias / 'out to get' the accused - what would be the motive?

The prosecution say LL murdered - but what could possibly be the motive ? I mean I know serial killers dont always have a logical one (if there ever can be a logical one) but they havent been able to prove any trauma or background - she seems normal except for the one post it note that can be explained as CBT writing down negative beliefs

There is a complete lack of motive on anyone's part here being alleged on either side

 

[Sundial]

This delay by senior management when there were concerns being raised is just bizarre IMO

I wonder (IMO of course), even if he tried to do something to keep patients safe, it’s possible it would look like he was bullying etc. it’s a very fine line to get right without fear of being penalised yourself for trying to keep patients safe.

Perhaps that’s what all her mentioning of bitchiness and concerns about her position by others were all about. JMO

 

[Sundial]

It doesn't surprise me ...but those Directors should have acted on concerns

I completely agree.

 

[Anxala]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

Dr Jayaram said it should have been documented throughout more.
He says he discussed the incident, but did not formally document it.

But I'm not sure what DrJ means by ^'more' either? Ben Meyers says no documentation exists. 'More' implies some documentation exists? If so, what does it consist of? Where is it? And why has it not been provided as evidence?

 

[Marantz4250b]

JMO here;
reading through the threads so far; like others I have been curious by baby Ks case.

If it was already reported to senior hospital staff (as given in evidence), in 2015, this suggests a grievance procedure (or even a safeguarding concern) which would have been raised again in 2016. I understand Dr J stated they were told not to makes a fuss, but if I had this nagging undeniable concern and was told not to make a fuss, why didn’t he keep a diary, document something for future reference, go to the Union for advice etc?
He states “they” had concerns as a collective group of consultants and I really hope this was documented or we will hear more about who “they” were.

At some point, there must have been a documented discussion as part of a grievance procedure with management prior to her arrest otherwise she would not have been moved to admin duties. If there is no documentation of a staff grievance particularly with safeguarding like this despite (allegedly twice) reporting it, I would be absolutely stunned.

All my own view of course.

I totally agree with everything here! I particularly agree with your points about making notes of it. If it were me and I were working at a hospital and I thought that a member of staff was so incompetent that my patients were being seriously harmed by them, intentionally or not, then I'd most certainly be making notes and recording times and circumstances if only for my own protection, reputationally and in a "staying out of prison" way of thinking!

The first thing anyone is advised to do by their union or professional body if they think things aren't being done correctly is to keep a diary of events. Yet he seems to have done nothing and if he did then why hasn't it been used as evidence? At the very least email yourself so you have a record which is not subject to being lost or destroyed.

<modsnip> ... his evidence is far from consistent, as far as I can see.

 

[Dotta]

I think that Operation Hummingbird is still ongoing, so who knows what might emerge.

Re Liverpool Hospital

As a training nurse, I guess LL was under constant supervision, no?
She, ummm..., spread her wings in Chester.

<modsnip>

JMO

 

[Tortoise]

is the witness list available to press....wondering if defense will call the TPN bag producers and pharmacy staff who prepared the bags

That was all in evidence at end of November, at the time of baby F's case.

 

[Marantz4250b]

JMO but it is extremely difficult at some hospital trusts to get anything done ...they are very into "a no blame culture "...imo its gone to the extreme

A "no blame" culture is not a culture of turning a blind eye, though. You don't blame, you question decisions and examine what can be done differently if/when things go wrong.

 

[scottishgal]

After the consultants couldnt leave her even three minutes with K .....how many minutes was she left with L, M, N, O , P , Q - unless management told them to let her do her job unless they have solid proof which only the police could get eventually ..... I am not making any sense, I should prob stop typing and just read ....

 

[Sundial]

I really hope

I think we can accept that he and his colleagues did express concerns but it seems that those concerns were expressed in person and/or by telephone only, not in any formal or official capacity, based on his own words here -



And I'm not sure what DrJ means by ^'more' either? Ben Meyers says no documentation exists. 'More' implies some documentation exists? If so, what does it consist of? Where is it? And why has it not been provided as evidence?

I would hope (and really like to think) something would be provided in due course highlighting this point. I’m interested to hear more after her move to admin duties. Surely, one would think there must be something documented somewhere in this by senior management, ward management, anything really. My own view of course but given the scale of these tiny infants involved, words fail me if there is no paper trail or anything around this topic.
JMO

 

[Marantz4250b]

He has stated positions...nurse Director and medical director

Thank you - information which was only posted after I'd posted.

 

[Dotta]

It doesn't surprise me ...but those Directors should have acted on concerns imo

It is management's duty!
Especially in healthcare.
JMO

 

[JosieJo]

I totally agree with everything here! I particularly agree with your points about making notes of it. If it were me and I were working at a hospital and I thought that a member of staff was so incompetent that my patients were being seriously harmed by them, intentionally or not, then I'd most certainly be making notes and recording times and circumstances if only for my own protection, reputationally and in a "staying out of prison" way of thinking!

The first thing anyone is advised to do by their union or professional body if they think things aren't being done correctly is to keep a diary of events. Yet he seems to have done nothing and if he did then why hasn't it been used as evidence? At the very least email yourself so you have a record which is not subject to being lost or destroyed.

<modsnip> ... his evidence is far from consistent, as far as I can see.

How can reporting it to the nurse Director and Medical director months apart be doing nothing?

He has already said on oath that he wished he had pushed it more when the directors did nothing

He also said he wished he had put incident form in in hindsight

He is the only person to go on the stand and shame the directors

He has also stated that although it seemed things seemed to happen when LL around he had no proof of what or how

 

[ColourPurple]

This gives more detail

Dr Ravi Jayaram told the jury at Manchester Crown Court that his team first told senior management about their concerns re the nurse in October 2015 but she was not removed from front-line nursing duties for another 8 months.

Dr Jayaram said the team told the senior director of nursing in autumn 2015 but nothing was done. He said it was raised again in February 2016, and the hospital’s medical director was told at this point. The doctors asked for a meeting but didn’t hear back for another 3 months.

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Dr Jayaram said the team told the senior director of nursing in autumn 2015 but nothing was done. He said it was raised again in February 2016, and the hospital’s medical director was told at this point. The doctors asked for a meeting but didn’t hear back for another 3 months.

There was a big gap between the alleged attempted murder of Baby J in November 2015 and the next charge, which is the alleged attempted murder of Baby K in February 2016. (Then another big gap before Baby L's alleged attempted murder in April 2016)

Could do with confirmation but that looks like the incident with Baby K may well have led to Dr J and/or the team rasiing their concerns about LL again in February 2016, and the hospitals medical director being informed.

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[Marantz4250b]

This delay by senior management when there were concerns being raised is just bizarre IMO

I agree. What possible reason could they have for not doing anything? This is a consultant (several of them, in fact) raising serious concerns about a lowly nurse rather than a nurse calling a consultant out.