UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #12

[Dotta]

This tiniest Baby died in agony, her body swollen unbearably according to Mum.

Even Arrowe could not help

Parents decided to finish this torture.
She died in Dad's arms.

I hope for Justice for ALL victims.

The Wheels of Justice grind slowly but surely.

JMO

 

[katydid23]

I have questions as to why many years after the events involving child K he can remember them in extreme, to-the-minute detail yet didn't say these things in his initial police interviews. That from LL's barrister not me. Also, his assertions that he went into the room to check on LL to allay his own fears that he wasn't "being hysterical" about his concerns around her, do not seem to fit with the fact that he and other consultants had already made their minds up about her and had raised concerns. He must have been well past the "am I being irrational" state of mind by then, imo.

I don't think that is necessarily true. People can have mixed feelings about a confusing but intense situation.

When my kids were very young, there was a beloved 5th grade teacher at their elementary school. He had taught there for years and was very well liked and respected. His wife of 25 years taught there as well.

HOWEVER I had a job at the school as the playground supervisor.
Because of my job I talked to the students every day at recess and lunch. And I began hearing odd things about potentially inappropriate behaviour on his part. IT WAS VERY HARD FOR ME TO BELIEVE.

Sometimes I felt it was true and I did express my concerns to the higher ups in the office----but at other times I thought I was being delusional for believing stories from little kids who may be misinterpreting.

It took many months to unfold. Things died down and the administration assumed it was all about nothing and it seemed over with.

Over a year later, after the couple separated, the wife went to police with child she found on his computer. He was promptly arrested and fired.

It makes me understand what those doctors were going through and why Dr J could have had various mixed feelings about the incidents. I had a very very hard time believing this beloved teacher was touching little boys. I would often blame myself for believing the rumours and it was very confusing.

 

[LorriB]

I'm not medical but just wanted to point out that LL hasn't said that the alarm went off, and in todays' reports it says she said she she would have raised the alarm if Dr Jayaram had not walked in and if she had seen the saturations dropping or that the tube had slipped. Whch seems to imply that she's saying she hadn't noticed that the sats were dropping at the point that Dr J walked in.

"Consultant Dr Ravi Jayaram told the jury that Letby was doing “nothing” when he walked into nursery room 1.

He said he saw her standing beside Child K’s incubator and then he looked up at the monitor and saw her saturations (blood oxygen levels) were in the 80s and falling.

Monitors were set to alarm when saturations dropped below 90% but they were silent at the cot, he added.

On Wednesday, prosecutor Nick Johnson KC read to jurors a summary of Letby’s police interviews about the incident, in which she denied any wrongdoing.

Letby told detectives at Cheshire Police she only recalled Child K because she was a “tiny baby” and the Countess of Chester did not usually take babies of her gestation and weight.

She said she had no recollection of the tube slipping and agreed that designated nurse Joanne Williams would not have left Child K unless she was stable and her ET (endotracheal tube) was correctly positioned.

Mr Johnson said: “She stated she would have raised the alarm if Dr Jayaram had not walked in and if she had seen the saturations dropping or that the tube had slipped.

“Miss Letby thought it possible that she was waiting to see if (Child K) self-corrected. She explained that nurses don’t always intervene straightaway if levels were not ‘dangerously low’.”

Following further questions from police, she suggested that maybe the tube had not been secured properly, he said. She denied that had been done deliberately."

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2023-03-01/lucy-letby-may-have-been-waiting-for-baby-to-self-correct-trial-told?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1677682509

Thank you.

The Chester presents LL statement a little differently and says "She also did not recall either any significant fall in saturations or there being no alarm. She accepted that in the circumstances described by Dr Jayaram she would have expected the alarm to have sounded."

Recap: Prosecution opens trial of Lucy Letby accused of Countess of Chester Hospital baby murders

THE trial of former Countess of Chester Hospital nurse Lucy Letby, who is accused of multiple baby murders, is due to finalise its jury and hear…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

It sounds like they presented Dr J's account and she responded to it. So that could simoly have been 'was there an alarm?' And her saying 'I don't remember'. Not the same for me as saying there was no alarm as a statement of fact. JMO and just theorising.

Hard to say without seeing her account!

Re the alarm, 4 possible scenarios I think exist:

1. Alarm was sounding and LL silenced it.
2. Alarm was sounding and LL and Dr J didn't notice it.
3. Alarm was faulty and didn't go off
4. Someone is mistaken and machine wasn't set to alert sub 90.

 

[katydid23]

From the article you quoted from;

The Crown says Letby, from Hereford, attempted to murder the baby girl within two hours of her birth by deliberately dislodging her breathing tube during a night shift.

So what we know now is that the baby was not sedated which is the opposite of what was initially suggested; no one saw her actually do anything at all; there is no other associated evidence which directly ties her to the Crown's version of events.

How can anyone possibly be convicted on this "evidence"? There is literally no evidence other the coincidence, as far as I can see and in my opinion.

How do we know the baby was not sedated? I thought it was said that a baby was usually sedated when being given the breathing tube because it is painful?

 

[WaxLyrical]

The nurse’s evidence yesterday talks of a “soft” Amber alarm and a more urgent “red” alarm.

Is anyone with experience able to shed any light on the difference? Would this desaturation to 80s be likely to trigger one over the other, or does it all depend on the individual circumstances? Furthermore, if it was an Amber alarm which was silenced fairly quickly would that be likely to be heard from the nurses station? Or is the red alarm much more “alarming”?

 

[LorriB]

How do we know the baby was not sedated? I thought it was said that a baby was usually sedated when being given the breathing tube because it is painful?

It was discovered in court on Tuesday.

Dr Jayaram is asked about the morphine infusion recorded, which appears on the notes above a note added, timed at 3.50am.
Dr Jayaram says, having seen the prescription chart, the morphine infusion would not have happened before the desaturation.

Mr Myers said Dr Jayaram had told police Child K had been sedated with morphine. Dr Jayaram said that was what he had believed at the time.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, February 28

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Cardgame]

Thank you.

The Chester presents LL statement a little differently and says "She also did not recall either any significant fall in saturations or there being no alarm. She accepted that in the circumstances described by Dr Jayaram she would have expected the alarm to have sounded."

Recap: Prosecution opens trial of Lucy Letby accused of Countess of Chester Hospital baby murders

THE trial of former Countess of Chester Hospital nurse Lucy Letby, who is accused of multiple baby murders, is due to finalise its jury and hear…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

It sounds like they presented Dr J's account and she responded to it. So that could simoly have been 'was there an alarm?' And her saying 'I don't remember'. Not the same for me as saying there was no alarm as a statement of fact. JMO and just theorising.

Hard to say without seeing her account!

Re the alarm, 4 possible scenarios I think exist:

1. Alarm was sounding and LL silenced it.
2. Alarm was sounding and LL and Dr J didn't notice it.
3. Alarm was faulty and didn't go off
4. Someone is mistaken and machine wasn't set to alert sub 90.

5. LL deactivated the alarm before dislodging the breathing tube, so it never sounded

 

[Tortoise]

Thank you.

The Chester presents LL statement a little differently and says "She also did not recall either any significant fall in saturations or there being no alarm. She accepted that in the circumstances described by Dr Jayaram she would have expected the alarm to have sounded."

Recap: Prosecution opens trial of Lucy Letby accused of Countess of Chester Hospital baby murders

THE trial of former Countess of Chester Hospital nurse Lucy Letby, who is accused of multiple baby murders, is due to finalise its jury and hear…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

It sounds like they presented Dr J's account and she responded to it. So that could simoly have been 'was there an alarm?' And her saying 'I don't remember'. Not the same for me as saying there was no alarm as a statement of fact. JMO and just theorising.

Hard to say without seeing her account!

Re the alarm, 4 possible scenarios I think exist:

1. Alarm was sounding and LL silenced it.
2. Alarm was sounding and LL and Dr J didn't notice it.
3. Alarm was faulty and didn't go off
4. Someone is mistaken and machine wasn't set to alert sub 90.

"When Ms Williams returned, she heard a red alarm, "it seemed like an emergency, something was going on".
She says she felt upset, and it "always frightening to go back into a situation like that"."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, February 28

 

[katydid23]

Oh I'm absolutely sure he did and I think we need to take his word on this and stop doubting and side-eyeing him, and not just because he was under oath. As you say, he's named people. That's good enough for me.

Where he may have been a little economical with the actualité is in his claim that physical documentation exists, implied by his 'should have been documented throughout more'.

My conclusion - and JMO of course - is that any/all reporting that was done at the time took the form of person to person discussion and tel calls only, hence why no 'physical' record can be produced as evidence.

Yes, I agree about the person to person discussion and phone calls. Administrators do not necessarily make a formal report of an initial discussion and then file it in an employee's permanent file. It could be kind of unfair to do so as a general practice.

As the doctor said, he had no proof she had done anything, he had not seen her do anything, and he was just expressing his suspicions about her apparent coincidental connections to the unexplained incidents. So the admins are not going to put anything negative in her file based upon suspicion. JMO

 

[katydid23]

I feel this is not their strongest case ..I feel they are relying on her not doing anything and no alarm sounding when the baby was not breathing (allegedly)

I agree that as a stand-alone, it is not the strongest case. But when added to the others, it shows similarity to others, and it adds to the overall pattern. So many times where the designated nurses leave for a break, knowing their patients are stable and settled, and return to chaos. JMO

 

[LorriB]

"When Ms Williams returned, she heard a red alarm, "it seemed like an emergency, something was going on".
She says she felt upset, and it "always frightening to go back into a situation like that"."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, February 28

Yes, we know a red alarm was going because Ms Williams tells us so, but not what happened before this.

 

[LorriB]

5. LL deactivated the alarm before dislodging the breathing tube, so it never sounded

Ah yes absolutely a possibility.

 

[ColourPurple]

Thank you.

The Chester presents LL statement a little differently and says "She also did not recall either any significant fall in saturations or there being no alarm. She accepted that in the circumstances described by Dr Jayaram she would have expected the alarm to have sounded."

Recap: Prosecution opens trial of Lucy Letby accused of Countess of Chester Hospital baby murders

THE trial of former Countess of Chester Hospital nurse Lucy Letby, who is accused of multiple baby murders, is due to finalise its jury and hear…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

It sounds like they presented Dr J's account and she responded to it. So that could simoly have been 'was there an alarm?' And her saying 'I don't remember'. Not the same for me as saying there was no alarm as a statement of fact. JMO and just theorising.

Hard to say without seeing her account!

Re the alarm, 4 possible scenarios I think exist:

1. Alarm was sounding and LL silenced it.
2. Alarm was sounding and LL and Dr J didn't notice it.
3. Alarm was faulty and didn't go off
4. Someone is mistaken and machine wasn't set to alert sub 90.

Ah yes, that was yesterday's article that also said :

"She said the alarm had not sounded. She said Child K was sedated and had not been moving around."

The one I quoted was referring to the summary that the prosecution gave in court today.


I would add anther two possible scenarios to your 4:
5. She paused the alarm before it had chance to sound*
6. She changed the default 90% setting that the alarm would alert at

 

[Tortoise]

Yes, we know a red alarm was going because Ms Williams tells us so, but not what happened before this.

It rules out alarm faulty and didn't go off, IMO

 

[ColourPurple]

How do we know the baby was not sedated? I thought it was said that a baby was usually sedated when being given the breathing tube because it is painful?

For the first incident, both Dr J and LL (in her police interview) originally said that she was sedated, and LL said Baby K had not been moving around. However it's now been agreed that she wasn't sedated.

I'm not sure if they have confirmed whether or not she was sedated at the time of the second incident, after the Xray.

 

[LorriB]

It rules out alarm faulty and didn't go off, IMO

Alarm could be faulty in that it didn't alert at 80% but maybe did alert to something lower (the 'red' alert).

I agree alarm fault is unlikely though JMO.

I found this article talking about the parameters of alarms in neonates and it offers another scenario I think.

- the alarm wasn't set to alert unless desat went on for a certain period of time. If LL had only been at Ks bedside for a short time, the alarm wouldn't have sounded even though 80% was showing on the monitor. As far as I know, we don't know when Dr J says he heard an alarm, just that it wasn't going when he arrived.

https://www.infantjournal.co.uk/pdf/inf_037_ise.pdf

 

[Parker Knoll]

Slight tangent but I think the prosecution should of taken the jury to CoCh neonatal unit.
It’s very helpful for juries to actually “ see “ what they are hearing about especially on a trial of this magnitude.
It used to happen a lot in the old days before everything went pear shaped sadly.

 

[JerseyGirl]

Lucy Letby: Nurse denied dislodging baby's breathing tube, trial hears

Lucy Letby is accused of "interfering" with the baby's breathing tube two hours after her birth.

www.bbc.com

 

[Tortoise]

Slight tangent but I think the prosecution should of taken the jury to CoCh neonatal unit.
It’s very helpful for juries to actually “ see “ what they are hearing about especially on a trial of this magnitude.
It used to happen a lot in the old days before everything went pear shaped sadly.

I've seen a few articles saying it's changed since 2016. I believe there was a fund raiser to build a new unit, but I don't know how much of the old building still exists, if at all.


12:20pm

The court is now being shown a walk-through of the neonatal unit at the Countess of Chester Hospital, dated September 2021 - which has changed following hospital upgrades since 2016.

12:26pm

The 10-minute video is being played to the jury, showing all the rooms in the neonatal unit, and what purpose the rooms served back in 2016.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Friday, October 14


article dated August 2018 -

"Subject to approval by Cheshire West and Chester Council’s planning committee, it is hoped that work will begin on the facility in October with a grand opening pencilled in for September next year."

REVEALED: full details on the new neonatal unit planned for the Countess of Chester Hospital

 

[Lincoln34]

Imo, Dr Js evidence has been both underwhelming and convincing, but for different reasons. His version of events arpund Baby L is pretty weak to prove she was trying to kill K. Her behaviour/presence could be suspicious, it could be genuine. But either way, its weak.

However, what I have found compelling from his evidence is all the detail about a number of consultants having concerns over many months, to the point they had their own meeting & at least 2 escalated it. Im not going so far as to say "no smoke without fire", but a group of well educated experienced peoples instincts, collectively feeling concern about 1 individual is compelling IMO

I have been reading the more recent threads . I have no real feel for this case as am not following sufficiently closely and have not attended court . However I do live in Chester and Dr.J treated my youngest child - quite brilliantly - a few years ago for an infection when a few weeks old and excluded kidney reflux . I know that is not directly relevant to this case specifically, but IMHO he is an excellent , kind , and sensitive paediatrician JMO.