UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #14

[Tortoise]

Oh recovered in the countess?
I thought he went to alderhey & recovered

he was intubated successfully by Alder Hey specialist and stabilised, before being transferred out to Alder Hey.

 

[esther43]

If dr Stephen Brearey had his suspicions for about a yr how come he never had someone watching & making sure she weren't left unattended?
He was the head of the neonatal unit. Does that count for nothing?

It seems to me they all suddenly grew a pair when triplet mama gave them the biggest public showdown of their life in front of the other trust, when she begged them to take her last surviving baby out of that toxic environment. Then they realised they had no choice, they had to overturn the executive team. JMO

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

Right. I did a semester of a nursing degree way back when I was first out of school and decided it wasn't for me, but literally the first assignment we were given was on becoming a reflective practitioner. That was also a focus of the teaching degree I did complete. I don't imagine there is any 'working with people's lives' profession that doesn't emphasise critical reflection as a huge part of your daily practice.

Yep. And debriefing and team dynamics are actually now a part of neonatal resuscitation training, and has been since 2010.

 

[marynnu]

Have people seen this? A bit more detailed than some reporting, IMO. Apologies if already posted.

Senior hospital executive ignored warnings about killer Lucy Letby

Karen Rees, a duty executive in urgent care in June 2016, insisted there was no evidence against Letby, and refused to take her off duty until the unexplained death of a triplet was investigated.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[esther43]

It sounds like everyone knew there was something weird going on. Just they didn't know what it was. After the first three deaths, the unit manager did a review to try and figure out commonalities. (Referenced in the daily mail article above.)

True story, takes me back to the text conversation between LL and her line manager where LL was feeding back that she had heard some 'not very nice things' about her practice.. and how she just wanted the best for the babies and families .
I don't know.. some of the narrative is just weird, would you serial kill and then send that to your line manager a message like that? It feels absurd in many ways.

 

[bbsaz]

That's a bizarre response, IMO especially coming on the heels of two deaths in two days. Most nurses would go home if offered the chance after a situation like that.

I suspect she wants to remain on the ward to see any comings and goings of seniors, unusual meetings, hushed phonecalls etc... surely you would want to be there to read the atmosphere rather than at home wondering if anything has gone on behind your back. Shes sensing that people are onto her, and wants to be there (imo)

 

[Imogenia]

So this Karen Rees reported today as saying no to Dr B appears to have won the “Haygarth Medal for Nurse of the Year” at CoCh in 2017.
Baffling.

I have myself never known of any medical consultant who would make a senior nurse the first (or only) point of contact in a grave situation that they reason will only get worse, much worse.

Consultants would (in my experience) always tell the medical director first, even if only keeping them in the loop confidentially and informally, at that initial point.

I don’t see the medical director keeping it to themselves either.

I don’t see any medical consultant simply taking ‘No’ from any nurse in a situation where they are certain that they are right, and the nurse, irrespective of how senior, is grievously wrong.

In fact, such is the nature of the medical fraternity, I would be quite astonished if highly suspicious medical consultants did not (confidentially) run their thoughts (and why they are thinking these) by those who they knew (from medical school days) now in the psychiatric, preferably forensic, fields.

I have known doctors seek confidential professional and legal advice from their defence organisations about much less serious matters than this.

This is the sort of nerve-wracking, once in a lifetime, situation where one, if going to disclose, does not disclose suspicions in a half-hearted way. They should have been advised to go to the police. If they were so sure that someone was deliberately killing babies, they should have gone en masse to the nearest station.

 

[Phoenix Lazarus]

Senior hospital executive ignored warnings about killer Lucy Letby

Dr Brearey told the court that even before the twins' deaths, he and some of his colleagues had raised concerns with management about the association between Letby's presence and deaths they had seen on the unit.

'I phoned Karen Rees, the duty executive in urgent care, who was familiar with the concerns already.
'I explained what had happened and said I didn't want Nurse Letby to come back to work the following day or until this was investigated properly. Karen said no to that, and (that) there was no evidence.

'The crux of the conversation was that I then put to her ''Was she happy to take responsibility for this decision in view of the fact that myself and consultant colleagues would not be happy with Nurse Letby going to work the following day?''
'She responded ''Yes, she would be happy''.

I said ''Would you be happy if something happened to any of the babies the following day?'' She said ''Yes''.

'That's where the conversation ended. We had conversations with executives the following week when action was taken.'

 

[Sweeper2000]

.

It sounds like he framed it as him being concerned about her needing a break, not as him being suspicious. So no need for her to do anything to convince him of anything. And her reaction is in line with her reaction to previous deaths, from Baby A onwards, where she didn't take any time off and said she wanted to be back in the room where it happened, to help her get over it. And in line with her previous "These things happen" type replies.

Plus, maybe , if guilty, she wanted the opportunity to kill again the next day, which is allegedly what she went on to attempt to do the next day!

all IMO

It doesn’t matter how he framed it, the point is that she failed to attach any significance to it suggesting she is not looking out. Her image manipulation is an ongoing thing so would presumably take any opportunity to make that illusion. Not say “I’m fine, must work”. Which to me and seemingly everyone is bizarre.

im going to try and name that coping mechanism. To quote from Rocky the film, “it’s not about how hard you can hit, it’s about how hard you can get hit and keep on going“. Seems fitting to me. Tbh though I can’t really place much because as magicarp says considering these circumstances I would expect anyone to need time off including pugilists. A little break to recuperate and then head back in but that’s not what we see. I’m sure she is different but that doesn’t mean much really. She may indeed be someone who keeps those moments to herself and in private which judging by her texts is also fitting. So so long as she is affected, that by itself is normal.

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

True story, takes me back to the text conversation between LL and her line manager where LL was feeding back that she had heard some 'not very nice things' about her practice.. and how she just wanted the best for the babies and families .
I don't know.. some of the narrative is just weird, would you serial kill and then send that to your line manager a message like that? It feels absurd in many ways.

It does feel absurd but I don't know if I can confidently predict how a serial killer would act. I do wonder if a text like that could be an attempt to control the narrative. The phrase "not so nice" struck me. Based on what we've heard, I do wonder - if guilty - if Letby is the kind of person who is outwardly always ultra-nice, always smiling, always "sweet." People who are unable to express their "negative" feelings are sometimes inwardly full of rage because they handle stress by repressing it until they can't. That's the kind of person I imagine might get a thrill, catharsis or sense of power, out of doing something cruel in secret while maintaining an externally benign exterior. JMO.

 

[arielilane]

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Lucy Letby: doctor asked for nurse to be removed from duties, trial hears

Lucy Letby: doctor asked for nurse to be removed from duties, trial hears

Hospital boss refused to remove Letby from shift despite colleagues raising concerns about her presence and series of infant deaths

www.theguardian.com

Lucy Letby allegedly tried to murder a baby after a hospital boss refused to remove her from frontline duties despite her colleagues raising concerns, a court has heard.

A senior paediatrician told an executive that he and his team were “not happy” with Letby continuing to work on the neonatal unit at the Countess of Chester hospital following a series of infant deaths.


Dr Stephen Brearey told Manchester crown court that he raised the matter with nursing chief Karen Rees following the deaths of two newborn brothers on successive days in June 2016.

The prosecution say the infants, Childs O and P, were the 15th and 16th victims of Letby, 33, who denies the murders of seven babies and the attempted murders of 10 others between June 2015 and June 2016.

The court previously heard that Child O was in good condition and stable up until the afternoon of 23 June when he suffered a “remarkable deterioration” and died.

 

[Dotta]

I have myself never known of any medical consultant who would make a senior nurse the first (or only) point of contact in a grave situation that they reason will only get worse, much worse.

Consultants would (in my experience) always tell the medical director first, even if only keeping them in the loop confidentially and informally, at that initial point.

I don’t see the medical director keeping it to themselves either.

I don’t see any medical consultant simply taking ‘No’ from any nurse in a situation where they are certain that they are right, and the nurse, irrespective of how senior, is grievously wrong.

In fact, such is the nature of the medical fraternity, I would be quite astonished if highly suspicious medical consultants did not (confidentially) run their thoughts (and why they are thinking these) by those who they knew (from medical school days) now in the psychiatric, preferably forensic, fields.

I have known doctors seek confidential professional and legal advice from their defence organisations about much less serious matters than this.

This is the sort of nerve-wracking, once in a lifetime, situation where one, if going to disclose, does not disclose suspicions in a half-hearted way. They should have been advised to go to the police. If they were so sure that someone was deliberately killing babies, they should have gone en masse to the nearest station.

There is usually hierarchy:
1st the immediate boss,
and if there is no reaction -
higher and higher (usually within the institution).

Oh, and always on paper - signed and stamped in the Office.

It usually works - well, at least where I work.

Although some students' parents warn they will write straight to President haha

 

[bbsaz]

Timeline of concerns being raised

June 2015: Brearley investigates and escalates to Director of Nursing his concern of LLs association to events. Brierly even says himself "No, not lovely Lucy"

Oct 15: Dr Ravi says from then on they had real concerns about LL and raised it with Director of Nursing

Feb 2016: Liverpool Womens investigate and report sent to Director of Nursing.

Feb 2016: Dr Ravi Jarayam raises concerns again to D of N and Medical Director. Ask for meeting but didnt hear back for 3mths ie May 16

24th June: Brearley asks Karen Rees to suspend LL, KR says no

30th June 16: Dr J emails his concerns after the consultant meeting day before

 

[bbsaz]

Seems to me that its the Director of Nursing (Alison Kelly) whose name should be circulating as much as Karen Rees' is... how many times was this Director made aware?!!

 

[esther43]

It does feel absurd but I don't know if I can confidently predict how a serial killer would act. I do wonder if a text like that could be an attempt to control the narrative. The phrase "not so nice" struck me. Based on what we've heard, I do wonder - if guilty - if Letby is the kind of person who is outwardly always ultra-nice, always smiling, always "sweet." People who are unable to express their "negative" feelings are sometimes inwardly full of rage because they handle stress by repressing it until they can't. That's the kind of person I imagine might get a thrill, catharsis or sense of power, out of doing something cruel in secret while maintaining an externally benign exterior. JMO.

And when you put it like that, it does make sense. There is something about LL's relationship with Dr choc that makes me think it could be a case of 'keep your friends close but your enemies closer'
Was she using him to get a feel for 'what the drs thoought' ? She was letting him fill in blanks in clinical pictures, bowing down to his superior knowledge base when he was pointing out things I suspect she knew already.
Was there a genuine attraction there on her part I wonder.

 

[Sweeper2000]

It does feel absurd but I don't know if I can confidently predict how a serial killer would act. I do wonder if a text like that could be an attempt to control the narrative. The phrase "not so nice" struck me. Based on what we've heard, I do wonder - if guilty - if Letby is the kind of person who is outwardly always ultra-nice, always smiling, always "sweet." People who are unable to express their "negative" feelings are sometimes inwardly full of rage because they handle stress by repressing it until they can't. That's the kind of person I imagine might get a thrill, catharsis or sense of power, out of doing something cruel in secret while maintaining an externally benign exterior. JMO.

Did think that as well. Not a single instance of outward anger or indeed any negatives that I can recall at all. It’s a shame we don’t have more about the police interviews. Anger when being accused of something one knows one hasn’t done is Normal and correct. We have had a few instances of a direct nature from LL but not anger. Like when she snapped at the nurse for calling for help.

is she a bottler? Do ya think. Bottled up until under pressure, too much pressure.

I do think the phrase “not so nice” is used popularly as a diplomatic and down played way of saying “I don’t like it”. It’s indirect which again is passive, I think most bottlers are passive aggressive or nice exterior but inwardly angry. I don’t know though, I’ve never heard of passive aggressive traits making someone hurt babies seemingly so brazenly. Doesn’t quite run with psychopathy as well, they don’t have the fear that makes people bottle it up or indeed any restraint when it comes to hurting people. Tend to be more than capable of direct and open conflict.

allot about this case is absurd.

 

[Tortoise]

Oh dear, wasn’t aware of that. again that’s difficult to decipher. I wouldnt exactly suggest that as a cunning plan the same as doing stuff when people leave the room is so not a cunning plan. If anything it’s self incriminating. A cunning plan is Doing stuff under peoples noses like a magician, like the 7.15 collapse. Where you have witnesses backing you up not every witness saying “the baby died and she was the only one present.

There's a reason police don't make arrests based on how someone would or wouldn't react, or what they would or wouldn't text their mates.

JMO

 

[ColourPurple]

It doesn’t matter how he framed it, the point is that she failed to attach any significance to it suggesting she is not looking out. Her image manipulation is an ongoing thing so would presumably take any opportunity to make that illusion. Not say “I’m fine, must work”. Which to me and seemingly everyone is bizarre.

im going to try and name that coping mechanism. To quote from Rocky the film, “it’s not about how hard you can hit, it’s about how hard you can get hit and keep on going“. Seems fitting to me. Tbh though I can’t really place much because as magicarp says considering these circumstances I would expect anyone to need time off including pugilists. A little break to recuperate and then head back in but that’s not what we see. I’m sure she is different but that doesn’t mean much really. She may indeed be someone who keeps those moments to herself and in private which judging by her texts is also fitting. So so long as she is affected, that by itself is normal.

Why would she be looking out for, or attaching any signficance to somebody asking if she needed time off ? It's a perfectly normal thing for somebody to ask her. It wouldn't set alarm bells ringing for anybody , guilty or innocent. So her reacting the same way she has to all the other deaths by carrying on working, is what I would expect. Why would she change anything.

And if guilty, why have the day off when a day in work is another opportunity to allegedly try to kill another baby. Can't do that if you're sat at home. And it's exactly what she's accused of doing ... going back in the next day and allegedly trying to kill another baby, Baby Q.

Now contrast her reaction to a Dr B asking her if she needed time off,after Baby P's death( doesn't want time off and allegedly attacks Baby Q the very next day) ... to her reaction to Dr G questioning her colleague about LL's actions in relation to Baby Q. THEN she reacts differently, THEN she sounds like, if guilty, she may have realised that DR G could be suspicious and asks a colleague (Dr NiceGuy?) whether she needs to be worried. And there are no alleged attacks in the three shifts after that, before she's moved to clerical duties.


IMO

 

[marynnu]

Yep. And debriefing and team dynamics are actually now a part of neonatal resuscitation training, and has been since 2010.

Not where I worked!

 

[Sweeper2000]

There's a reason police don't make arrests based on how someone would or wouldn't react, or what they would or wouldn't text their mates.

JMO

True. They wont arrest no but they will help mental health experts put you in a padded cell if you are considered a danger to yourself or others